Comic Fury Webcomic Hosting - An ART issue: Needing help here on my Confirmation result

This is tricky. I've had quite an upset yesterday with my confirmation of my Masters of Fine Art ( a confirmation is where they review what you're doing and make suggestions about what you should do). It seems the stuff that I have expertise with (and seemed easy to do) was highly praised as Art, and the stuff I slaved over was discounted as being too "commercial".

The comments were made about the two graphic novels I'm working on: Real Life Trips (RLT) and Gender Transition for Innocents (GTFI). The idea was that each was a different take on the same thing. RLT was the personal (recounting five trips I'd taken in my lifetime), whereas GTFI was the impersonal and theoretical (in a manner similar to the Scott McCloud books. Ultimately I was looking at having them printed. In short (samples below from RLT):


Confirmation Ideas by LauraEss, on Flickr

The example on the left (full size here) was derived from taking photos or "snapshots" in Second Life (SL). I spent a whole month creating the set, buying/customising/building the props (over 300 of them) and customising the avatars (including the automated pets) for this. The example in the middle (full size version here) was a process of traditional drawing imported/converted/coloured into Illustrator. The example on the right (taken from the RLT Introduction) is the same, but I'm not drawing in a "funny animal style". Up to now most of the (meagre) feedback I've been getting has been that the SL stuff is "soulless" whereas the drawn stuff is OK.

In RLT there's a framing story and that's what the SL stuff was going to be used for, because the look was "closer to the now", whereas the stories told - all flashbacks to trips in the past) would be drawn in different ways. The first one mimics Rupert Bear album pages (like this this one) because it was the oldest story and Rupert was my first real comic love. As the stories got closer to the present, the characters would become less funny animal/furry, and be more human (the limited colour would also expand in each chapter).

And yet yesterday it was suggested that..

* I abandon the different styles for only one style, and that
* it should be the SL style, and that such should only be online, not printed

...in order for it to be considered ART! The other styles were considered to be too bland and commercial to be either either interesting or art. Now this has put me into a huge spin.

See I really do LOVE working in SL to make comics (just check out Seconds). But up until now I've gotten minimal response and it seems a battle to have it recognised as a legitimate way of making comics let alone art. The discipline is different from just drawing something - it's midway between a traditional comic and machinima (animation made from virtual worlds and video games). There's no proper name that I now of for this form of comic (other than some form of Fumetti). It's not "easier" than doing a comic any other way, not if you want to do it well.

But I had not considered it for the whole graphic novel. I had thought it "too easy" and the "soulless" comments had gone to heart. And there are limitations. Like Thunderbird puppets there are limits to the facial expressions you can use and you can't pose things like individual fingers. Even so, the example above accurately recreated a real person's flat, and approximated what they and I looked like in 2006. Also, I can't see the SL style being useful for GTFI. That is hugely inspired by Understanding Comics and I want it simple and straight forward.

And a post-Masters goal has been to have both printed. Huh? So, what do folk think? I'm particularly interested in hearing from those who've undergone something like this in academia, but I need some feedback. The suggestions made have hit me out into space, and I need some grounding.

Personally, I would leave it up to an audience. What the public likes over what an academic thinks.
I think the saying is "Those who do, do. And those who don't, teach".
But that's just my opinion.

I, er, um..my educational level thus far is merely a high school, and I'm just going to college next year (so all this Master of Fine Art thing is all far away for me), so I don't know if my opinion would matter all that much, but I'll just tell you what I think.

So my understanding is: you want to print your comic, which includes 3D style and drawn style. But people say it should stay online and be unified with the 3D style.

I personally like the drawn art better than the 3D ones. It shows more of the artist's persona, style and more creatively expresses the characters and such (I do not think it's bland at all). I disagree with whoever suggested that one style or the other is definitive of "art." You can't define art in that way, as long as it has aesthetic merit and involves artist's unique ideas, one shouldn't be able to shoot it down and say it is or isn't art. With all that aside, there's nothing stopping you from printing the comics. What difference would it make? looking at a picture of a painting online or in an art magazine doesn't make any one better than the other, it's the same painting.

As for the 3D (SL-style) ones, I personally don't feel too much attachment towards it, and it may be the "soulless" part that people have been telling you about. It just seems so neutral, lacking that stylistic element that often exists in drawings, that the viewer can specifically identify with an artist. But then again, it may be that people are just too unfamiliar with it. I see such comics as a precursor for something better in the future as better programs are introduced to make it easier to be creative with them. But for now, with its limitations for poses and emotions, it may seem, "soulless."

And the unifying of your comic styles...I didn't read the actual whole comic, so I wouldn't know as well as you. I lean towards unifying the styles in one way or the other for the readers' comfort, but if you managed to organize it well and if it was your stylistic choice that is important to your comic, then you should just keep it.

Aaah too many tangents. Sorry, To summarize, I think:
- your comic should be fine, printed or digital.
- I like the drawn style better
- But then again the 3D style isn't too bad either and I do see the merit in them.
- I would suggest unifying the art styles, but only if it wouldn't take away from the correct expression of your ideas.

Well, that was my opinion. Hopefully someone who thinks better than I do will come around and reply to this thread. :D

I remember my first year one of my instructors looked at my work and asked where I got the models from. I said “I just drew them, ya'know, put shapes together”. She said with a straight face "You can't just draw stuff from your imagination". So I personally think college is a big steaming load. But anyway, if you want to publish them, and you think they are a finished product, then do it. I agree with ZeroGee, if you have fans that would like a book, make a book available. Though I will say it's nice they would even include in comics for your Masters.

I finally saw my main supervisor yesterday to talk about my confirmation review results. In particular this following suggestion has been pretty vexing.

Terribly jargonese isn't it? See my main goal here was to show gender transition as a journey within a journey. For Real Life Trips I have five biographical accounts and a framing story of myself telling these accounts to a friend. The framing story was done using second life and accounts were to be drawn in different page formats (the first mimics a Rupert Bear annual). But it seemed that the reviewers rejected my drawing and preferred the Second Life stuff. Not only that, but from the above it also seems that instead of me making a comic, they'd prefer some form of animation via Second Life!

I have a major issue with that. Making comics with multiple avatars in Second Life (or even with one) is like arranging dummies in a store window. You set up the background, props, poses and clothing on each, take snapshots (or screen dumps), and then make slight alterations for the next shot/dump. Repeat until you have enough photographic material to use in your photo comic. There are variations, like posing a character in front of a blank background and then cutting and pasting them into a scene, but neither is live, like TV or film production.

A masters is meant to showcase one's art in the medium(s) one has mastery in. Going from Comics to Animation to jumping from one medium which I have experience and expertise in, to another in which I have very little experience and expertise! And I have less than 16 months left to do all this. That being the case I've rejected the idea of live Second Life stuff entirely. This left me three possible changes to the RLT graphic novel:

1. Leave it as is with the framing story done via SL, and the other segments hand drawn;
2. Do it all in Second Life as comics; or
3. Do it all in hand drawn artwork.

Out of those options, #3 shows the most of my "artistic character" so I'm going to go with that. The differences between accounts will be shown mostly in page layout. And if they don't like that stuff them anyway. There are issues surrounding my research question, which was:
..and relevant to that was the comment:
...which might be fair enough, but neither .graphic novel is focussed on the concept of "transgender": in particular (a term which I consider to be a political one for expedient use) but of Gender Transition, and there is a difference. Other comments support the notion of changing the research question to:
...but I think I need to talk that over with my other supervisor, who I'll be seeing next Tuesday. It'll make a world of difference on what I write and research, and hence my lit review (which I flunked out on in the review).

Am starting to redraw the framing story.

Comics are not considered fine art in an arena I'm aware of so I suppose they're steering you into a direction and format that comes closest to fitting the criteria, and away from anything too comic bookish. It just seems to me that their objectives and yours are diametrically opposed, but as you're on the fine art course, I'd just do it the way they suggested and then when the course is over, do it the way you wanted - if you want a decent pass that is!

If I had mentioned comics when I was studying fine art, I would've promptly been shown the door, unless I was being post modern.

Going with the goal of increasing and understanding of gender transition in the mainstream community at large, I think there is some logic to only using the drawn pictures as they are more accessible to a larger percentage of the population. Plus, your art as drawn has more of a unique style than the second life one does.

*** Edit - DONT GIVE UP and DONT change your style because someone ELSE wants you too - do it for you not them..


Ok this is a very delicate subject. so called "real" art vs digital manipulation. Ill take on each point in sort of a bullet format. i apologized in advance for spelling /grammer / ect ...

i work in the digital meduim for my comic have for many many years now- i often get the mixed reaction of "thats so cool to my favorite

" well the characters all look pretty stiff, dead and lifeless, and their mouths are always the same shape when they're talking."

you know what it means nothing in the end - the medium you choose to work in is a reflection of your personal style. ( and what schools "accept" and what is art is WAAAAAY diffrent, someone throwing a can of paint at a wall can call it "art" or welding a bunch of scrap metal togather or my favorite a single square on a white background ( WTF ) but thats a "accepted" style...

ive been a commercial artist for many years and a 2d traditional pen and ink till a event prohibited that.
so what are you to do - ive see stuff on here that would make your eyes bleed. but its still considered "art"
wiki classes are as " Art is a term that describes a diverse range of human activities and the products of those activities, but here refers to the visual arts, which cover the creation of images or objects in fields including painting, sculpture, printmaking, photography, and other visual media "

whetther you produce this with second life, legos , throwing paint at a piece of paper or manipulating digital figures is totally subjective yes if you use digital mediums such as SL or sims or something people are gonna have a negitive reaction ( sometimes ) and tell you oh thats not art - then they go and draw something a 3 year old wouldnt be proud of.

Im not "attacking" regular artists by far the oppisit i LOVE well done art.( except abstract because i think its silly and a con game ) as far as "get my work printed" whoof.. first off i want to be totally brutal. no most likely it will never happen. can you make money with art sure thing! now on the flipside theres a chance someone goes THATS really cool here have some money ! ( such as a silly comic that makes no sense to me but people seem to be all gaga for it ( i wont mention the name due to backlash )

Schools do NOT consider comics "art" in any shape form or fashion .. period. i remember something that Linsner said he went to art classes and school but found his own "style" and produced a massive product ( Dawn anyone )
and he started off with meager black and white comics.

with schools you have to "play the game" do it there way , find out what the teacher wants and give it to them. thats the ONLY way to pass .. once you have that magic peice of paper well then things dont get much easyer. theres a reason they call us "starving artists" find a way to make money on the side .. you will need it - but never give up and USE the medium YOU want screw what others think its your art - your dream, not thiers , there is no "right" or "wrong" way for art..It just is.

I totally agree with this. It depends on what you want as well though. If the final school grade matters to you then play the game and do what they want. No one says you have to keep doing what they after your done.

Sometimes I find instructors/professors get so caught up in theory that they lose all sight of what is practical because they don't actually do the work themselves. I don't know if this helps at all I'm kinda rambling now.

Personally I like your drawn style better. I think it has more "you" in it. But that's just my opinion, in the end you need to do whatever feels right for you. There will always be people out there who will "get it".

Whichever path you choose good luck.

This whole situation must be incredibly enraging frustrating for you. On many levels, it reminds me of when I used to get stuff into college juried exhibits by taking my crappiest studies, vandalizing them, giving the garbage a catchy title and watching in horror as the junk was invariably accepted, while stuff that had actual aesthetic merit and thought involved was universally snubbed.

This reaction from the committee just seems like the typical academic pretension and ignorance that permeates the system. There is something else about it that makes me want to flip my desk and punch my monitor, but I will focus on this first:



As I read GTI, I realized that you were trying to go with an 90's 'zine aesthetic with some Ralph Bakshi influences, and not bunch of hap-hazard "comic book styles" -- whatever the hell that means. (Am I correct?) I can understand them asking to refine your style and narrative a bit, or perhaps make the work more cohesive for the sake of aesthetics, but reading your confirmation review result snippets just hurt my head as an artist.

Having arguments about this the kind of bull is what caused me to get kicked out of one art school, drop out of my Art Major, and become hated by nearly every grade school teacher art teacher I had. The only art instructors who even remotely understood what I was trying to do were a high school art teacher, who had previously worked for Marvel and my high school industrial arts teacher. As someone who has worked as a full-time artist on my own terms, I can say that my two high school art teachers' advice happened to be more on target with my aspirations as a comic/outsider artist than my other instructors. Your audience seems to get it as well. As someone who enjoyed making comics using Poser art, which is a cousin of SL in many respects, I see merit in these forms of posing media. You can make it into an extremely emotionally engaging form of art -- especially when you create custom skins and add your own touches on post. However, judging from your visceral reaction, this is neither where your heart is in making this your primary media nor what you really want to accomplish as an artist. You may love it, but not for this purpose.

What the audience tends to like, is a lot different than what instructors and art students tend to like: life-inspired art or even worse, pretentious art trendiness. Currently anything that is obvious digital media is going to make it into most trendy artists radars. Seriously. I may just write a blog about that.

I'm so angry by what is happening to you. Especially when I read this in your posted review:



They're basically encouraging you to engage in tokenism and ignore an issue that's integral to what you are describing! As someone who went through an inter-to-female chemical gender transition and a Puerto Rican, I feel that what was said to you was so incredibly offensive and bias-motivated. I probably would've filed a complaint had I been in your place. This has nothing to do with your art, and everything to do with the confirmation committee expressing their biases on what being "transgendered" is and being uncomfortable with your art as a result. Maybe, I'm wrong, but that's what it smells like.

I apologize, if I seem irrationally angry in my response, but DAMN! I completely understand why you are so upset. Rationally upset. You're probably just going to have to play their game until you get your Masters, but after you're done, I give you permission to burn the print outs, erase the files and hit the flash drive with a sledgehammer. But, if you feel you can be sneaky enough, play their game and add a few subtle "f-yous" in your work.

*Taking calming breaths to avoid having a rage attack.*

Wow, that is so offensive -- minorities 'complicated' the research? Good lord, these ppl are idiots. Seems like the sooner you can get past this and on to the art that you feel the need to create the better.

Oh come on - don't be a tease! We can take a little backlash here you know.

Well its not a comic fury strip , and no :X my lips are sealed... :D

You're devoting a considerable amount of time and money to the goal of receiving an MFA. Just do what is necessary to achieve that goal. Outside of that process you can pursue whatever avenues you desire.

I got all my art training from MAD Magazine. And back then, it was only 25 cents cheap!

You have reminded me once again why I am self-taught. Well, I've learned from the styles of many, many artists (if you want to see my influences, go to My Deviant Art Page) but every time I've been in any kind of art class environment, I just can't dig it.

I can appreciate the basics, and real life drawing of models, but when it gets into what's acceptable and what's not, I think that was well-covered earlier in this thread. It is so subjective to the Department's standards and will have little basis in reality. Of course, that's kind of the college experience in a nutshell (and I did almost 4 years of it until I dropped out and got married - long story).

If your objective is to pass the class and get the degree, it may not be worth it to fight them. If your objective is to be true to your artistic passion, I wish you well but it will be an arduous battle at the very least...and you still may have to bow to their standards to move on/pass.

Either way, best wishes!

Finished redrawn panel by LauraEss, on Flickr

This is the redrawn panel, coloured and toned. I think I have a handle on this, and am quite pleased with the result. Have already re-drawn all the panels in the framing story. Will colour them all tomorrow, and look at everybody's responses properly than. Thank you for the feedback! :D


Late edit: and this one:

That's a really good way to handle this! Nice compromise between your vision and the academic constraints.

Aren't there any actual teachers around here?

Reggie is the one who makes the most sense. Do it the way the teacher wants it done, then once he's out of way and you have a degree do it the way you want to. The best way to totally screw yourself in an academic environment is to strike out on your own and rebel against those who grade you.

Once you have the grade, do what you want, until then do what they want.

Unless you're an historian and very good at bending evidence to fit whatever idea you're trying to prove just to see if it can be done.

(Imagine what would happen if some idiot would show my stuff to the geeks who wrote those Wikipedia articles on photo-novels. They'd be forced to rewrite the articles. Guess it's better to invent this and be copied and remain unknown than to actually lead the way.)