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11th Jan 2017, 11:57 PM #21
parkblog79♂

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keltyzoid!:let the two parties involved appeal the ban

you banned me for a month over a joke insult Shrek was totally ok with with

:I


Seconded. That is the best logical solution to this problem.
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12th Jan 2017, 12:24 AM #22
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With all due respect, two significant issues with this approach have already been brought up. To summarize, it creates a strange and inconsistent precedent (and CF already struggles with moderator inconsistency and/or appearances thereof), and it leads to confrontations when third parties misinterpret the joke and involve themselves in an apparent fight.



Further, we can generalize this to a much wider range of forum issues, as I attempted in my proposal. This is very closely tied with the general problem of misinterpretions on the Internet and tensions arising from them - so we can develop policies for the general problem, and solve the specific one at the same time.
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12th Jan 2017, 1:22 AM #23
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Kyo:

What I can tell y'all also is that definitely not any joke is going to be okay. Even putting religion and stuff like that aside, it needs to clearly be a joke.


What if you're like me and your jokes suck?

This forum stuff is sounding hard, I don't think I'll bother with it much in the future.
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12th Jan 2017, 9:06 AM #24
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well the good news is that now is the chance to voice your opinion on how you think joke insults should be treated

what i meant mostly is that you can't just be calling people, let's say "literal fucking human garbage" or something. Like, there's gotta be some point of harshness that's the cutoff. I don't remember you having any problems in that regard before actually.
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12th Jan 2017, 10:03 AM #25
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I'm tempted to weigh in, but I don't want to sound like Dr. Forum Psychiatrist Helper #5


Do whatever, it's your site. :P
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12th Jan 2017, 10:14 AM #26
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Epiale:Well, I agree, but there is a difference between me calling my friend specifically something, and insulting an entire group of people.

So a specific case like Kelty calling a friend a jackass or something where it's clearly directed only at the friend and clarification (mostly through just asking the insulted party through a mod or pm if it's ambiguous at all) can confirm the friends cool with it is fine.

Someone calling a friend a stupid Christian, though, is using a group as part of the insult. Even if it's ok with the specific person it was an insult that inherently insults an entire group, and that should be a no-no.

I wholly agree with Epiale and Junoro's opinion. When a joke calls specifically to someone and they are ok with it, I agree. But when there is a whole lot of group involved, this calls for moderation.
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12th Jan 2017, 4:18 PM #27
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yeah that's a seperate rule that will continue to exist, so ideally I'd like to move the discussion away from this - taking shots at peoples religions will continue to be against the rules

Merged Doublepost:

killersteak:I'm tempted to weigh in, but I don't want to sound like Dr. Forum Psychiatrist Helper #5


well i mean it is literally a thread asking for opinions, so I think you'll be alright
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12th Jan 2017, 5:40 PM #28
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Kyo:So like, what's your take on all this? Where should the cut-off point be,

I have no particular opinion on where to draw the line ..as long as it's consistent, and perceived as consistent, it should be the same for everybody.

Or, should you go for situation-dependent moderation (like, are they friends?), the reasons for every decision must be clearly presented so that everyone sees it's not actually random or biased. Having to do research (are they really friends? is the "target" really fine with it?) and then explain these things in the public along with the moderation may get pretty complicated or time-consuming though, so maybe it's better to just keep it simple (?)

I completely see why it feels absurd or frustrating for someone to not be allowed to joke-insult a friend who knows it's just a joke anyway, but I can also understand the reasons for not allowing it - this is a public place, it's not only about the one who's joke-insulting the other one who's fine with it, but also about everyone else who sees it, I think Pip and Xeno have great points here. And-

Kyo:The other party being cool with it is a really low bar that will result in super inconsistent modding (like pip said, basically). And If I can just call people a fucking piece of shit as long as they're cool, people are going to think it's ok to call people a piece of shit, in general.

Exactly this is my main concern.

Some mentioned already, here are some more examples how situation-based modding like asking the "target" about how they feel about it can go terribly wrong-



It's probably impossible to avoid situation based modding all together, but keeping it down to a minimum by having clear-cut rules may save you from a lot of headache.



So overall,
there are these possibilities?

- Joke-insults are not against the forum rules.
If someone feels offended, it's up to the users themselves to sort it out, mods don't intervene. No "babysitting".

or-

- Joke-insults are against the forum rules.
Not at all no matter what. Mods intervene, even when "insulter" and "insultee" are both fine with the insult.

or-

- A combination of the two above.
There are types of joke-insults which are against the rules while other types are not, and it must be clearly defined which is which. If I got it right, this is what you want to go for, we just need to figure out where to draw the line.

or, finally-

- There are no specific rules about joke-insults.
Instead, it depends on the situation if the joke-insult is fine or not. This will probably require way more work for the mods than the other solutions, as they have to explain each and every case in order to avoid confusion.



tl;dr
I'd keep it simple, draw a clear line, which types of jokes or "insults" are against the rules and will get moderated, and which are all fine or left to the users to sort out on their own. Situation-based moderation such as "are they friends?" or "is the target cool with it?" should be avoided or kept to a minimum.
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12th Jan 2017, 7:14 PM #29
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Kyo:well, after several previous warnings for abrasiveness.

Does being "abrasive" actually violate rule #1?
13th Jan 2017, 8:34 AM #30
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(Without looking it all up) I would argue that yes, in the case of the specific things that kelty got warned for, yes it did. However, this is not the thread to discuss keltys record, if they want to, they can do it via PM or even start a thread if they desire to do it publicly.

In regards to your concern about mods modding things not actually in the rules: The good news is that the series of threads that this one is a part of exist exactly for the purpose to bring the rules more in line with what we actually moderate, as there are cases where we've been moderating stuff that isn't really covered by the rules, and we're trying to eliminate these cases.
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14th Jan 2017, 6:01 PM #31
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Kyo:What I meant mostly is that you can't just be calling people, let's say, "literal fucking human garbage".

What if it's biffboff, though?



I kid, I adore the 'boff -- rhymes with Hoff, as in David Hassel, whom all Germans think of in the shower.

Oh crap -- I just insulted all Germans!

*is banned forever*



...I think what I'm getting at is that I think this thread is, collectively, overthinking the subject at hand. When it comes to jokes, I think it'd be very difficult to fairly enact any sort of blanket rules regarding tone and content. I think it would be best to rely on reactions/reports from the joked at. I don't think mods need to be listening to people outside the jokes, i.e. if I mock biffboff and I think it's funny and he thinks it's funny, I don't think it should matter if user X, Y, or Z are offended, since it won't have been aimed at them. This entire thread has me concerned we're going in a direction of overly-sanitizing the forum.

P.S. Kelty can be abrasive to me anytime.

P.P.S. Perhaps we should have a "friend list", like an "ignore" list; if someone seemingly/jokingly insults a user, but those users are on each other's friend lists (I assume the mods could see such a thing), then it should be assumed there is no issue.

P.P.S.S. ...probably more coding than it's worth, though.
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14th Jan 2017, 6:34 PM #32
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I'm slowly absorbing everything in this thread. Didn't jump onto this immediately because I needed a break from Comic Fury discussion threads.

Miaubol:Situation-based moderation such as "are they friends?" or "is the target cool with it?" should be avoided or kept to a minimum.


At the very least, warn that this can occur in the rules. Something along the lines of Xeno was saying with the guidelines thing.

RED2015:I think some obvious insults should incite a ban without the two parties intervention. (This should help in cleaning the forums from uncalled dialogue). Then others that aren't really obvious could be left to be decided by the parties if they find it offensive or not.

Although this could go sideways, people may tend misinterprete jokes everyone once in a while and some others might not just be in a good mood and may find some jokes unnecessarily offensive.
The Mod's judgement should probably determine everything at the end, which implies that they should step up their game and take their time in passing judgement on these situations.


Okay, ban obvious insults and then ban things that might be insults. The issue here is the "might" part and how the moderation can deal with those more effectively. Of course the mods have to use their best judgement, but what established policies are going to be there so the mods can effectively and consistently act on that judgement for this issue?

Tibbittz:P.P.S. Perhaps we should have a "friend list", like an "ignore" list; if someone seemingly/jokingly insults a user, but those users are on each other's friend lists (I assume the mods could see such a thing), then it should be assumed there is no issue.

P.P.S.S. ...probably more coding than it's worth, though.


I honestly like this idea just so people, even newcomers, can understand the context with relationships some posts might include. Like, it's obvious Babble and Kelty are dating from what their posts include, but I would never guess Tibb and Kelty to be acquaintances capable of insulting each other. Does anyone remember that disciple system that's overall pretty useless? What if that was expanded to more of a friend system. Profiles can be more than just a description and the comics the person hosts; now they're able to show what friends others have made been categorized lists. We can friend, unfriend! It might bolster the clique issue some people have a problem with, but that's an entirely different discussion for another thread.
14th Jan 2017, 7:10 PM #33
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I dunno, a friend system strikes me as fairly redundant and causing more complexity than is needed, especially because I find it unlikely many people will be checking the profiles of people that appear to be giving insults.

I do, however, like the idea of "reaction" as a moderation aspect. Moderate reaction, determine whether reaction was fair. (For example, cursing someone out for a joke insult to someone. Okay, maybe you thought it was an actual insult, but your reaction was way too heavy-handed and out of line.) Then, use the reaction moderation as criteria to moderate the action the reaction originally was made in response to.

It won't solve everything, but I still do believe that moderation of reaction is a good way to get better in both nuance and consistency in moderation.
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14th Jan 2017, 7:16 PM #34
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Tibbittz:...I think what I'm getting at is that I think this thread is, collectively, overthinking the subject at hand. When it comes to jokes, I think it'd be very difficult to fairly enact any sort of blanket rules regarding tone and content. I think it would be best to rely on reactions/reports from the joked at. I don't think mods need to be listening to people outside the jokes, i.e. if I mock biffboff and I think it's funny and he thinks it's funny, I don't think it should matter if user X, Y, or Z are offended, since it won't have been aimed at them. This entire thread has me concerned we're going in a direction of overly-sanitizing the forum.


Been a bit busy to take part in much discussion here, but I think this is a good idea. If it's a targeted insult and the target isn't offended, then no big deal. A third party doesn't really have a dog in the "fight". Kinda blurry about if it's a broad group-based insult though? Like what if someone jokingly says, I dunno, everyone who does color comics sucks. I guess if it's a broad group-based insult then anyone can complain about it?

Of course, reports from third parties shouldn't be entirely dismissed off-hand, but then that's where case-by-case moderation comes in I guess.

And yeah, the friend system seems a little bit overcomplicated.
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14th Jan 2017, 8:04 PM #35
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Seeen:I dunno, a friend system strikes me as fairly redundant and causing more complexity than is needed, especially because I find it unlikely many people will be checking the profiles of people that appear to be giving insults.

I was assuming, if there were such a system, that the mods (royalty, if you will) would be able to see who was "friends" with whom, but that general users (serfs, if you will) would not.

Merged Doublepost:

Respheal:The friend system seems a little bit overcomplicated.

The last major board I was a part of the serfdom of (the Brian Michael Bendis/Jinxworld/rampant bullying board) had a "friend" system. It was a VBulletin board; my understanding is that this board is of Kyo's own coding, and thus a "friend" feature might be too much work to code into it. But, again, there IS an "ignore" list here, so... y'know... ellipses...
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14th Jan 2017, 8:21 PM #36
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Respheal:Been a bit busy to take part in much discussion here, but I think this is a good idea. If it's a targeted insult and the target isn't offended, then no big deal. A third party doesn't really have a dog in the "fight". Kinda blurry about if it's a broad group-based insult though? Like what if someone jokingly says, I dunno, everyone who does color comics sucks. I guess if it's a broad group-based insult then anyone can complain about it?

Of course, reports from third parties shouldn't be entirely dismissed off-hand, but then that's where case-by-case moderation comes in I guess.

And yeah, the friend system seems a little bit overcomplicated.


Excellent point. Perhaps we should leave it up to the victim to report aggressive behavior? Perhaps other can file a complaint so to speak~ so if there is an actual fight breaking out a mod can be notified... so they can size up the situation, maybe check with the victim, but no "legal" actions will be taken unless they "press charges."

Essentially, irregardless of the intention of the insult, it is up to the person who is being offended(or teased) to call for help. As it is a matter between the two individuals.

I mean, someone might insult me with mal intent and I might be miffed but I perhaps may not feel the need to see them punished.

In another case, I might see that Kelty is going out on a full rampage insulting me(such a meanie! ;^; xD) and I feel like I can't resolve the situation or brush it off. So then I call for help from a mod.

The exception would be, of course, concerning broad insults, I think we have something of a consensus concerning that one.


But I mean, a lot of us are adults and have the capacity to resolve the issue over a friendly pm. I'd only involve a mod if I felt intimidated or unable to handle the situation myself. Which, even with good ol' Biff around, I have never felt I had to do so. ;)
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14th Jan 2017, 8:27 PM #37
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Kokoneos:irregardless


*squints*

Kokoneos:Excellent point. Perhaps we should leave it up to the victim to report aggressive behavior? Perhaps other can file a complaint so to speak~ so if there is an actual fight breaking out a mod can be notified... so they can size up the situation, maybe check with the victim, but no "legal" actions will be taken unless they "press charges."

Essentially, irregardless of the intention of the insult, it is up to the person who is being offended(or teased) to call for help. As it is a matter between the two individuals.

I mean, someone might insult me with mal intent and I might be miffed but I perhaps may not feel the need to see them punished.

In another case, I might see that Kelty is going out on a full rampage insulting me(such a meanie! ;^; xD) and I feel like I can't resolve the situation or brush it off. So then I call for help from a mod.

The exception would be, of course, concerning broad insults, I think we have something of a consensus concerning that one.


But I mean, a lot of us are adults and have the capacity to resolve the issue over a friendly pm. I'd only involve a mod if I felt intimidated or unable to handle the situation myself. Which, even with good ol' Biff around, I have never felt I had to do so. ;)


Honestly, and I know I don't speak for everyone, I feel one thing we need is less reliance on mods. Moderator intervention is so strict right now that there's a very real appearance of, "all conflict is bad," that extends even to joke insults, while also causing users to report instead of sorting anything out themselves.

I dunno. Point is, what I'm pushing for in all of this is getting the community to put away its training wheels and start learning to sort things out itself. We've tried before to enforce community self-policing, but that didn't work, so we clearly still need moderation. But I think we need moderation that focuses more on how we handle our problems than handling them for us.
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14th Jan 2017, 8:35 PM #38
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i usually only joke insult people i know would be ok with it. ie Shrek, Babble, Tates, Darkus. we have an understanding.

real insults are deserving of bans and warnings. you know, "human waste" and "shut the fuck up" and slurs and shit

i still think bans should be allowed to be appealed.

also, why does the severity in ban length just increase instead of depend on what the cause for ban was? getting a huge ban for a third warning for something totally inane just pisses people off. like, you can't ban someone for a long time for being a dick and then ban them longer for a thread derail because "you broke the rules again, you silly billy."

plus, being able to see the warnings you have instead of having to guess. that way it's incentive to monitor what you post instead of just posting what you want. i've gotten blindsided by bans when i thought i was okay with the moderation, but nah.
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15th Jan 2017, 4:01 AM #39
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Tibbittz:This entire thread has me concerned we're going in a direction of overly-sanitizing the forum.


^



It is kinda already there, though.
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15th Jan 2017, 4:07 AM #40
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Steak is right. The forums are already "oversanitized". Mods always try to step in before conflict can happen at all and moderation as a whole makes any conflict look like a bad thing. That subject is kind of how all of this started.

So, y'know, if you're worried about "oversanitization", make sure you've got a voice here, yeah? We're trying to break this cycle ComicFury's been stuck in, and complacence, especially complacence because you "don't want to be a part of the cycle" serves to perpetuate said cycle. By trying to avoid the cycle through silence, you become a key part of its progression.

Mind you, we're getting into more broad territory than this thread is going for.
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