Not sure why I checked here. Haven't been on in over a year. Just want to say that the points cute thing are making are hitting the nail on the head. A year or more back I was saying the same things. We disagreed then though :p
Anyway, yes tons of people have quit this site because of the tumblr like issues here and the moderation issues. I'm one of those people. The same issues have been happening for years.
Anyway, maybe I'll pop back up in another year when this discussion happens again. In the words of 2 great philosopher squid girls, "Stay fresh".
I looked at your work and anyone doing anything more than basic criticism would be really dumb. Your work looks really amazing.
To answer your question of what I do? I relish in it. I feel an initial internal sting don't get me wrong. But I'm doing what I like. But I spent a long time in the MUGEN community before starting my comic back in it's dark ages when everyone was super jerks. Harsh criticism was the norm. They'd tell you to die. Report your site as child porn to get removed. Try to hack your site. And would insult you in large gangs banding together. Making review sites that made fun of people's works. Try to find your real name, etc.
And MUGEN is just a program to make 2D fighters lol (it's better now, there was a shift back in 2006 to change things)
But yeah, people can be jerks in this anonymous world. I just make sure I don't let them phase me. Roll with the punches and continue on. They want you to react. They want drama and outrage. Don't feed them. Roll with it or troll them. Whatever you do don't let it affect your passion.
*to note I'm mostly responding in regards to ridiculously hostile and untactful comments
Another note. Have dialogue with them. With a level head. Step back, calm down, and explain how you'd prefer them to comment. How they respond to that will really determine their intent and character.
The normal version is $15 and the EX version is $87!
I HIGHLY recommend this program! It is a godsend to comic makers and inkers and is now almost in par in other areas like coloring and stuff than Photoshop.
Let me ask you something. Are any of those things you are saying by any chance based off experiences... that were a year ago? because it sure sounds like that. I posted who got banned this year earlier in the thread.
Fair enough. And yes, many of the issues I can name are from over a year ago. I will say my own ban (that you now admitted was wrong and I do appreciate that) made the impression stick that much more though. I wonder how many others might had been banned prematurely.
Okay, since it's harder to say it's an issue NOW I'll just try to sum this up with one last focus. Do you think it was an issue in the past? And if so do you see how it has lead to the current environment the site has now? And if you don't see anything wrong with the environment now then do you think all the people that got rubbed the wrong way or banned in the years I was talking about would be able to come here now posting as they did without getting banned again?
The thing is is that it's hard to see if the site has changed in terms of moderation when as you yourself noted there is no longer a larger varied group of community views. There's just 1 view now. The shift has been set in motion for a while so new users that have that view will come in and like it and newer users still finding their voices will be indoctrinated into it and taught to lean that way too.
Matt touched on the whole "uncomfortable" thing a bit. This is where I wonder how much has things changed. Someone being uncomfortable is going to happen. Bigots are real. If someone comes in here talking about gay marriage as less than equal I feel the better approach isn't to silence them. Unless they are like SUPER DUPER anti gay. Like are they seeming like they are legit spouting hate? Or are they just born somewhere in Texas where they are seeing that the floods are caused by "teh gays" or whatever nonsense those conservative nutjobs cook up.
Kinda like when the media asks some old guy from Duck Dynasty what he thinks about gay marriage. Now he's OBVIOUSLY going to say something negative. And he's not going to think he's being a bigot. The chore as a community and society isn't to kick them out though. It's to HELP them understand. Yes he's going to say something some may not like. And yes someone can call them out on it. The chore of the moderator should be to try and have users not call them out in aggressive manners. Shrug it off the 1st time. Maybe it's just a passing statement. Continue talking about the positives. Continue being civil. And when you do have to call someone out if they speak about it too much you try to ease them into it and don't start attacking.
This is the balance I want. Tolerance from both sides of uncomfortables. To use my own ban (that was decided as unjust yes) as an example. At the time there were several uncomfortable users in said thread. It was about females in comics. I was whole heartily agreeing with the content of the person I confronted. I didn't agree with their tactic to make users that were wording things incorrectly to be turned into a witch.
That was me trying to actively intervene as a user that can call out wrongs. And I was banned for it. I never got insulting. I told them I thought their position was 100% correct it's just that they were making users say they were leaving the thread. So those users associate female discussion threads in a more negative light now. Had they been spitting vitriol I'd be all for burning the witch. But that wasn't the case.
I think for the most part people lean too much toward thinking the absolute worst from someone that says something dumb about subjects that are legit real issues to them in real life. And I feel it's all due to the years I'm speaking of that has lead to the now and I don't know for sure if it's really changed. Especially since I had a really negative experience with it not long ago that backed up all these accumulative ideas.
I've only been banned from 2 forums. Back in the old era of MUGEN when the jerks ran wild I was banned from the jerks main forum. Because I said I think it's odd to ban people for using someone else's game properties (that use sprites from Capcom, etc) to learn from and with credit.
Have I considered maybe I'm outside the middle as was claimed? That maybe everyone I speak about that no longer posts for whatever reason is also outside the middle? Yes. It just doesn't compute well with how many other site I do go to that I didn't screen or anything and they do not take the same direction. Either I'm VERY good at finding sites with my ideal method of communicating or this one site is the anomaly I have found.
I honestly hope this post didn't come off offensive toward anyone. I think most people here are trying to just be as nice as possible and understanding. I want people like Centcomm to feel safe posting and several others is all. Would some people have to confront uncomfortable text from time to time? Yes. But we can get through this together. And run the ones that are truly spouting bigotry to some other area where they think we're the nutjobs!
I-ninja:Yeah you're right, it is the community's job to judge our mods, to make sure that matt or fishy (rip) or even kyo are fair to all?
I have been banned once (for a rather stupid reason from my point of view) but for the most part he has been pretty fair. My only problem with Kyo is that he uses wiki word definitions sometimes, and we need more upgrades and more gators.
And I think we should still try to understand what jnp is trying to say I don't think he is trying to attack-attack kyo nor call all of us wimps or assholes, because that first post was touching on the horseshoe theory. Unless I missed something.
And jnp you may wish the explain what happened some of us do remember what happened because we have been here long enough but some of us don't remember or was not here when it happened
Oh I just looked that horseshoe theory up. Yeah that's a pretty close thing to what I mean. I don't know which would be the left or right in our context but that's exactly what I was wanting to say.
It's hard to explain exactly what happened and it'd take a long time as it's several years in the making to this point.
But when DD was taken over by Wowio and ruined many users left from DD to CF. So my particular story would have to start there.
Back then CF was very different. You had some really crazy jerks that had been banned from DD already. I forget their names though. Anyway I guess this influx of varied users caused a shift in what Kyo wanted CF to be. For a while things were going pretty well. I presume at some point some tight and left sided folks started to fight more? I'm not really sure what started the actual Divide Kyo mentioned. It wasn't long before the crazy jerks were banned. They should have been. Those 2 were horrible. Now this is only an assumption but I guess this caused a more strict approach to moderation in general? Because all of a sudden people that were saying the wrong things are phrasing things in ways that could be taken wrong were being called out in huge manners. When they tried to respond they would find the mods were always on the side of the person feeling offended. I really don't want to have to dig through old threads to find these examples but they should exist unless the content was simply removed so there is no more records. I started getting people messaging me about how such thread went and Kyo edited their post and told them they were being offensive or aggressive. When in fact they at most was slightly leaning to a different side of the horse shoe but not super far. I tried to tell them that it's nothing. Just have to adapt a bit to a different climate I suppose. Then one by one DD members started getting banned. Or saying they were afraid to post because they didn't want to be attacked or banned for something small.
Anything involving discussions about females, religion, politics, etc could get a person banned really quickly if they were not careful on how they word things. This is where the biggest divides seem to come in at. It's hard for me to word this without saying that I don't think Kyo knows how to deal with people that generalize a bit? It'd be different if the people in question was actively trying to badmouth any of the touchy subjects. But in most cases it was a general discussion that was worded in a way some one found uncomfortable.
the comfort zone on that horse shoe is tilted toward one side more than the other. So a larger range of people are considered problematic individuals than on most other sites. It makes it hard to adapt here if you come from places found more in the middle of that horse shoe. When I'm out and about in the real world I have to work with and associate with people from all over that horse shoe. There is a limit to how far on one end of the shoe or the other I can comfortably be friends with someone before they become too far. I feel my range is quite large. Mostly the extremes are too much for me. I don't feel the moderation is that way here and that is where the tension comes from. Going to dig up this user's story and that user's story won't really shine a lot of light on this issue. It's a pattern.
I hope I explained things better without being too vague. It's hard to remember specifics from such things. There has only been a couple times in the past where I spoke up in thread when it happened. Once for Skullbie and Arden and I think for someone that wasn't from DD but their post seemed really tame to be banning them.
Technically I didn't see it as a temper tantrum till Kyo pointed it out. I hope I've managed to correctly take a step back and that you have not found me to be antagonistic or upset as I've replied to you or others.
It did make me notice that the way my frustration was being responded to was snowballing my frustration more. Please don't read this next line in a snarly or condescending way. Is my question about the way he interacts with upsets users not a valid context? I thought it'd be a good starting point as this may well be a big reason why others fell the way of the dinosaur in the past.
The point is I want a wider variety of users to be accepted by Kyo without him feeling they are problematic. I want him to be less ban happy. To not lock threads that turn south so quickly (hey this thread is still open though so it's going to destroy that complaint!). Stop editing people's posts to remove things they said he doesn't like. I've seen some really mellow things removed and I can't point to any of them now because there is no proof of what they used to be.
If I am right about the things I am claiming and go to PM wouldn't that help not give it a voice? I don't want anyone to side with me. I know how all this looks. I just want to have this different view have a public voice for just a bit longer. I mean I don't know how else to actually prove he's affected so many people other than going and getting a list of people I've talked to or seen mentioning it and coming back here with it but that still wouldn't really prove anything.
"It's how moderation is done?" Wowzers. Alright, let's get everyone to whip out their moderation credentials and wave e-peens at each other.
It should be something everyone is expected to do. The moderation should never be above critique IMO
I think, myself, and a few other people here at least, want to know what you expect someone to say to that. Since you clearly have the creds to tell people how to moderate, how do you talk to someone who is throwing a vague temper tantrum with no discernable direction? I'm not sure how to begin that communication, myself, so you can take this opportunity to enlighten us.
Well, I try to find common ground and see if I can find us a base to work with. I ask them what they are upset about and attempt to explain the inner workings of the why and how I came to a conclusion. I've had people coming in and posting swearing and calling me every name in the book. Do I succeed in coming to an understanding with them all? No. At that point I just have to tell them that's just how we want the forum to be. Generally we have to come down harder on jerk faces there telling them they need to calm down and such.
The rest of the mods say I play the "good cop" :P I will listen and discuss for a long time in public or in PM trying to make sure they don't think I don't see their POV. I've had some really hostile people end up being super friendly by the end after I let them blow off steam.
It's possible to be civil with someone blowing a gasket and help them calm down enough to get to the root of the issue. And yes, I've changed policies before due to this. There is a topic dedicated to giving feedback about staff decisions. I've made mistakes. The whole staff has. We discuss these things in a public view able staff section so users can see the conversation and how we all contributed to the final decision along with the thought processes.
Now I'm not asking for all of this. Right now I want to examine how Kyo treats users that feel wronged and see if it may have been contributing to users going deeper down the rabbit hole and ending up getting banned or leaving.
The mods set the standards of conversation. They are the role models if you will.
It's sort of broad and it's how moderation is done. I'll just start off with this particular thing and see how it works. If we can communicate effectively from that post I'll attempt to branch it off into the other areas.
MistakeNPotatoes:I guess I feel like I would get involved if I understood exactly what you were getting at - I realize as a member of the community I can just write it off and forget about it, but I've been picking through what you've been writing and I'm really kind of confused. I know I'm missing context, and that's really where it's at.
You're using a public forum to call someone out for judgement, which means you're either trying to put them in a hot seat or trying to rally people who feel the same way that you do, but I have not seen one specific example of anything. There's hints of wrongdoings, sweeping under the rug, etc. but I don't know what you're talking about. If you're worried about talking about these events in a public forum, then you should probably have a more direct conversation over PM. I don't think you're going to find any allies by speaking so vaguely about things, especially with uninformed people like myself.
To me it seems like you're asking me to cast judgement on Kyo on hypotheticals alone, but with my personal experience he has never been out of line and has disclosed any of his actions to us, so... yeah, I really don't understand where you're coming from.
I know. I hate that it feels like that. Most of this is years of events that pretty much only Kyo and a select few that were around would understand. The key is how he said he used to ban a lot and now he doesn't. I've had lengthy polite PMs. Me and Kyo would chat it up on skype and stuff. It's just the way he used to ban so much for very small reasons and the directions he'd side when conflicts may arise that made me not like how he was doing things.
There used to be a lot more vocal about this stuff than me. Kyo even admitted there was a divide in the community. But he leaned in 1 direction of the divide instead of balancing it. So here we are. Everyone that was vocal is either banned now or they don't post anymore. If it goes to PM then it never gets a voice. It goes the same way as the rest. Exile.
And I do understand how hard it is to balance issues. I admin the largest english speaking MUGEN forum. mugenguild.com
Back in the 2006 era and before that it was leaning too much toward the "asshole" type I mentioned. It was a really bad place to go to. I even left and went full time to my comic and quit MUGEN.
Later some guys from there came back and asked me to help relaunch the forum with new rules and less restrictions on using content. Permission rules were crazy for a gaming community that mostly used sprites from companies!
Anyway now it's become much more active and people find it much easier to access because we brought in more sensitivity and respect/tact.
I just realized part of this was a reply to Clanjack :P
Anyway, I will stop saying things that seem to attack the whole when you and I know it's not EVERY person. I'll try to stick to very particular issues like the one I said earlier.
look at this. I'm not going to engage with posts like that because it's an equally frustrating and pointless endeavour. If you want me to respond to you, post on a level that shows that you're actually willing to listen to my responses, and not just say whatever to get a reaction. If you don't do that, I don't engage. Because if you show me you don't actually want to have an honest conversation, engaging is a waste of my time.
Okay. That's understandable.
I'll start with this specific thing then. If someone is frustrated and throwing a tantrum is the best course of action as admin to just right them off? Normal users can but as an admin you should consider ways to diffuse the frustrated individual. Sometimes people get upset. If you simply refuse to talk to them because they are blurting things you don't like isn't that counter productive and going to escalate the situation in most cases?
But this isn't the 1st time I've asked. And you've still never said why you do things the way you do. I didn't always come across this way with you but you always steer away from answering.
I would say what this makes me think but somehow the conclusions I come up with are too offensive to entertain. So I guess instead of moving on we have to be stuck in this cycle of you assuming the worst from me and vice versa since there's no way I could be having legit issues here.
I want to say we are somewhere in the middle and my view is too far negative. I'm sure it is but you just seem to post things that deflects and antagonizes. This is what you do with anyone that has issues. You make it like it's some personal affront.
While I don't take your views of me personally but think there is a misunderstanding instead. When I have users that are upset I try to at least help them see my side no matter what they are saying about me.
EDIT: To clarify something I'm sure I am wording things in not the best way due to my own limitations and that this is a point of annoyance with me. So some things will be worded in ways that could be antagonizing. Especially if we are reading the posts in a somewhat upset mindset. That doesn't mean you should blow me off when asking for legit answers. You're the admin. You have all the power in this. There's nothing you can get from me and I am the one that can get something from this. So in this conversation you have the power.
I really hate this part of your comment just cause you're indirectly calling everyone here either an asshole, a sensitive pussy, or a little bit of both when you know nothing about anyone here. It gives you this elitist mindset that gives the impression that we're below you and have conformed to some evil tyrant (which is apparently Kyo).
No, the assholes wouldn't be here! They'd be banned! It's like a sliding scale. Going from one extreme to another. I don't think everyone here is sensitive pussies either. Most of the time I feel like members here feel THEY are in this elitist mindset and if someone goes a bit too far into the "asshole" territory they should be banned.
In other sites I post in people understand that a user isn't going to be perfect nd they give leave way on interpreting what they are saying. Even in the "sensitive" category not everyone would be OVERLY sensitive. That's for the latter extreme. But many will be more sensitive to stuff that might not be too bad to most people.
Basically I don't feel one can have a conversation here similar to in real life. I'm accustomed to forums where religion and politics are not as touchy subjects. Where when someone says something crazy the whole thread isn't derailed for long. The idea is that the staff directs the user base better on how to interpret posts in less hostile and/or personal attacking manners. Then you can have "assholes" and "sensitive" conversing together! They adapt to each other. The asshole tones down the assholeness and the sensitive person raises their tolerance a tad. And many of us have both extremes within each of ourselves.
I'm not attacking the people here. I'm criticizing the formula that is used to maintain such a narrow view. I don't know which bans you saw that you felt justified. Many are for sure. That happens in all forums. But it can also be simply a difference of opinions on what we consider acceptable. And that wouldn't mean I'd think you was too sensitive if we differed in that opinion. That's your individual right.
@Kyo: Look, all anyone can do is make assumptions based on what they see others say and do online. I wish you'd at least try to help me understand the why and what of your actions so I wouldn't have to fill in the blanks. That's why I do this. I want to engage you so you'll help me understand why you do these things. It's worrying that you honestly don't care that I and many other people think this.
EDIT2: And it's not just about people that was banned. I know several authors that don't want to post here that could make accounts or already have them.
Nama:Why are you so set on having Kyo admit he was wrong?
I don't think that'll happen. I just want him to admit what he did because he always comes off like it was just another thing. Just removing the trash or something. What if he started banning all your friends and other random people for weird reasons?
I will give you points for finally admitting you wrongly banned someone. I've never seen you do this. And yes that was the ONLY warning I got from you. In fact my reply to the ban at the time was this
Really? We don't get warnings? I mean obviously if I thought I'd get a ban I wouldn't have posted or kept posting.
Thanks for helping push the egg shell mentality brother.
Then you said
It's all a matter of severity. I don't think a warning would have been productive in this case.
besides, you did get a warning, in fact you even came to me before this whole thing started because of the warning. Your first post was fine, the next would have resulted in a warning, but you kept piling more on top.
The "warning" being the post I gave beforehand. So, yeah. For some reason you thought I wouldn't stop if you warned me? I dunno. I did notice that nothing happened to the person that actually had people saying they no longer wanted to post in that thread because of them. The ones I tried to speak for. Without insulting. I may have had some snark in my replies but that user had just as much.
Ugh, I shouldn't have mentioned the ban because that's not the problems I wanted to discuss. More a symptom.
don't you think you're being, you know, a little bit overly dramatic? I mean I guess that's a pretty cool not-quite-conspiracy-theory but like, what
This isn't an issue to you because you have everyone you like here posting how you like them to post now. While I had to watch you run away or ban MANY people I liked. It's so bad that it seems there are problems between the DD communities vs the CF ones. I don't know if you're so naive you cannot see that the experiences they had here are what shaped their reviews of this site. How I can go to other communities on FaceBook and when CF is mentioned I'll see non DD members saying the same things.
Or you know what you've done and are just trolling anyone left that says anything about it. How am I over dramatic about a site that I thought would be the next huge webcomic community effectively running large amounts of users away because they cannot fit a very niche mold here.
Especially as I pleaded and begged while it was all happening. Does the fact that so many people that function perfectly fine everywhere else get banned here not seem odd? I mean one person mentioned how this community is so tight nit now it's like they are a hivemind. And meant it as a POSITIVE!
It just makes it easier for me to accept this all as you just REALLY dislike the other mentalities and hey it's your site so you'll only keep the personalities that conform more with your mentality. Even though you know it's more sensitive than most people's.
Someone told me Kyo had posted Private Messages here to turn attention away from actual issues I mentioned and go for his patented character assassination tactics
So I want to at least post his so called "warning" here that would totally indicate to me that I was way out of line and could be banned for what I was doing. Which was calling out someone that had upset 2 people in a thread making them not want to post in it anymore.
"So try not to get frustrated when someone is not responding exactly as you like."
I think that's really patronizing and putting things into cutethings posts that aren't there, but otherwise it's fine.
I had actually reported my own post to be sure I was even allowed to do such a thing. Because I didn't WANT to get in trouble if I can't call someone out for being pushy or abrasive. That kitty guy got a blatant warning that was simple to understand.
My post in this thread was not even about my ban. But somehow all that mattered was justifying it.
Anyway I want to put together a picture of the CF history using Kyo's quotes.
There were times when the community was much more divided, too.
we used to be a bit more ban happy in the past as well.
The divide was purged through bans, character assassinations, and a strong movement toward what this place is now.
BUT with all that being said reading all this thread I did realize something. Kyo must not WANT a middle view forum. I have created in my mind 5 classes of communities.
Extremist assholes (the guys that are HUGE bigots, want to take down people's sites, blatant racism, sexism to the extremes, etc)
Assholes (More like the Something Awful variety, they insult and do tough guy stuff. Some may fall into the extreme but for the most part they are all tight nit in their hardcore jerk head ways)
The middle (a little from column A and a little from column B. The extreme sides don't need to go to this community)
Sensitive (Take being respectful to a whole other level. They are desperately afraid of hurting anyone's feelings for whatever reason and can use their moral high road to declare those they feel fall short sub human, some may fall into the extreme but for the most part they are all tight nit in their overprotective ways)
Extremist Sensitive (This is where you get the real big crazies that give actual things like Feminism, etc a bad name. They go to the furthest end of this spectrum to blast their views trying to attack the opposition and destroy it)
So Kyo has actively done what he could because in the end he WANTS to be in the sensitive category and NOT in the middle where the most people could socialize and interact. I hope he wants to stop at Sensitive anyway :P
So as many of you said. This isn't a community for those that do not wish to conform. I could easily conform to the Sensitive but I can't conform to a whole forum that barely allows the middle and won't allow the assholes.
This forum is too one sided. All I see when someone complains is that they want bigotry or racism or something when there is a sliding scale on all things. It's not one or the other.
So basically I intend to do what you guys suggest. I never wanted to be a burden to Kyo. Heck I came here open eyed and in love with the guy. He's created a great host. I won't take that away. I think I may have some art pending by a few ppl here so when they post it I'll respond to them in their threads. But other than that I'll go ahead and do like so many others have done and quit visiting and posting here.
I know it's probably hard to believe when surrounded by so many peers that say the same thing but believe me when I say there is a large group of artists that simply feel they would not have a voice that can be openly heard here. And no, they wouldn't be wanting to troll, call people names, or whatever opposite side of the spectrum some people here jump toward.
I'll stick to just the comic side of things and if I read your comic here don't think this will end me commenting on it.
(I don't suppose this would be a good time to ask for a NO COMMUNITY view to make sure I don't see a thread title on the main page and be tempted to look would it? :P)