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29th Jan 2018, 1:15 PM #1
Zomburai

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There's a symphony director at local college that's bad at his job. He hated it, but he was stuck. Even though he had no talent for the role and his students were unteachable, there he was. He had frequently tried to explain to his superiors that he wasn't a good fit for the position, that he could flourish somewhere else, but to no avail.

Eventually, the pressure finally got to him, coming in day in and day out at a job he was no good at and one of the cellists gets sarcastic with him and he strangles the kid. The kid dies.

Well, you can't just kill someone. The director is arrested. He's tried and the judge sentences him to the electric chair. The man waits out his sentence on death row. His last meal is a plate of bananas.

He's brought into the room, strapped into the chair. The executioners throw the switch, and .... nothing happens. He has miraculously survived the electric chair unharmed. Well, he's served his sentence so they have no choice but to release him.

After this, obviously, the man is utterly unemployable. He looks for work for weeks and finds nothing. Desperate, he ends up back at the local college. He pleads for a different job at the college, but they refuse. With the symphony he will stay.

Obviously, this did nothing for the man's mental health, to be trapped in this dead-end job yet again. Finally, he brings a gun to class one day and shoots several students.

Well, you can't just kill three people. The director is arrested. He's tried and the judge sentences him to the electric chair. The man waits out his sentence on death row. His last meal is a plate of bananas.

He's brought into the room, strapped into the chair. The executioners remember this guy, and they're not letting this guy out again. They crank up the voltage as high as it'll go, let it build up power, and throw the switch. There are sparks everywhere, the lights flicker, fuses break, and .... nothing. The man has once again survived unharmed. As he's served his sentence, the executioners, coughing through the now smoke-filled room, have no choice but to let the man go.

Long story short, he ends up back at the college, forced into the same position. This is the last straw. This is where he snaps. He gets rifles, grenades, body armor. He starts a hostage situation. It's on the nightly news. The standoff lasts for nineteen hours.

Well, you can't just start a hostage situation that lasts for nineteen hours. The director is arrested. He's tried and the judge sentences him to the electric chair. The man waits out his sentence on death row. His last meal is a plate of bananas.

The executioners are very familiar with the man at this point, and they're not gonna mess around. When the strap the guy in, the reroute the auxiliary power into the room ... the chair is getting enough electricity for a couple of city blocks. The entire room is humming like a generator when they throw the switch.

Sparks explode everywhere, lightning arcs through the room, and finally there's an explosion! The executioners pick themselves up from the rubble, stunned. They see the silhouette of the man through the dust that fills the room! He's waving his hands in frustration, and as the ringing finally clears out of their ears they can hear him screaming:

"That's what I've been trying to tell you!!! [spoiler]I'm just a shitty conductor!!!"[/spoiler]
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29th Sep 2017, 12:09 PM #2
Zomburai

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Insult my OC


How? His face insults him worse than I ever could.
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26th Aug 2017, 2:21 AM #3
Zomburai

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EDIT: Nah, nevermind.

I'll keep it constructive.
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25th Aug 2017, 10:01 PM #4
Zomburai

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Me, as a white dude, advocating that minorities should make nice-nice with people who want them dead or harmed is absolutely asking them to put their necks on the line. (Keep in mind that Davis didn't win over KKK members by compelling arguments, he did it by becoming friends with them. That's a very, very different animal.)

How is my whiteness irrelevant? It's not irrelevant to the supremacist: he already views me as human, if deluded. My making friends with the supremacist doesn't impact his worldview at all.

My specific words were "I don't know that [this] is an actionable plan." It certainly works on the small scale. I do not see a way we can scale it up in any realistic way.
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25th Aug 2017, 9:34 PM #5
Zomburai

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I've heard of him, yes.

I don't know that asking black people to quite literally put their necks on the line by stepping up to befriend supremacists is an actionable plan, particularly as a white dude.
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25th Aug 2017, 8:36 PM #6
Zomburai

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MissElaney:@Zomburai Someone who is skeptical is not the same as a supremacist, so I am not sure I understand your point. A skeptical person is someone who just doesn't believe you on a specific thing yet, and you can't convince them to believe you by telling them examples that turn out to be irrelevant and/or untrue even if the broader idea of what you are trying to convince them about is 100% truth. If you want to convince a supremacist about racialized police brutality, you honestly can't start with proving racialized police brutality. You'd have to start by proving that his supremacist worldview is wrong in the first place, THEN move on to racialized police brutality.


Well, if we're trying to convince people of the problem, it's probably better to go to the statistical realities first.

Because my point was, there is no case you can point to where, in your words, "it couldn't happen to someone of a different race." Charlottesville aside, racism doesn't usually look like a dude in a high-and-tight with a swastika screaming racial slurs. It's almost always someone being a little more judgey... or more to the point, a little more scared ... and in the case of cops, being more willing to make an according choice to use lethal force. Until we invent recordable telepathy, every instance of police killing someone is going to look like, at worst, ill judgement.

I brought up Philando Castille because that was about as close to an unimpeachable case of wrongdoing as you can get, and racists and supremacists (or, excuse me, "skeptics") still pick at every nit they can find to justify the death of a human being.

(Incidentally, I'm not convinced you can prove to the supremacist his worldview is wrong. They already have to believe in objectively wrong and completely illogical things to accept a supremacist worldview. How do you logic someone out of that?)
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25th Aug 2017, 4:35 PM #7
Zomburai

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MissElaney:@MistakeNPotatoes: He did have a gun and he did reach for it. I can break it down for you citing footage of the event itself and the exhibits that his family's lawyer used but I won't do that unless you or someone else is genuinely interested.

Debunking Terrence Crutcher however, does not debunk the broader picture of police brutality.

The only reason why I am bothering to say the Terrence Crutcher thing is debunked is because when you try to convince someone who is skeptical about racial police brutality, you can't put forth an example that will undermine your point and expect to get traction. Crutcher's case is an example where a shooting is frankly to be expected to have happened to anybody regardless of race and thus undermines the point of racialized police brutality.


See, I think this is incorrect because the supremacists can always find something to undermine this person or that person and make that instance "okay," if only in their own heads.

When people started making excuses justifying the shooting of Philando Castille ("But if she was so concerned, why didn't she start filming until after he was shot!?!?"), it was clear that nothing will convince some people that an injustice occurred, if it happened to a particular racial, religious, or political group.
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25th Aug 2017, 12:43 PM #8
Zomburai

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That is literally a privilege. "I do not have to go through this bad thing that other people do," is baseline privilege.
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25th Aug 2017, 3:56 AM #9
Zomburai

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EDIT: Nah, what I snarked was expressed much better by defo and Jack. Just couldn't wait to get back into the chat and start swinging, I guess.
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23rd Aug 2017, 4:45 PM #10
Zomburai

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Respheal:What purpose does breaking some innocent bystanders' windows serve to defeat or surpress fascism?


The same purpose breaking a glass or a bar stool serves when you're out drinking and the big dude in the room wants a fight: sending the message of "I will use violence if I have to."

It should be pointed out, though, that riots and violence are a natural outcome of gathering large groups of humans together, and the larger the group, the more likely this is to occur. I mean, when you gather tens of thousands of sports fans together after their team wins the big game it's not unusual for cars to get overturned and set on fire, but nobody complains about that or cares about the people who are out a car.

I think we can all agree that fascists are bad--I mean, duh? But harming innocents or the property of innocents isn't good. It's not bad on the same level of fascism, but it's not good.

Sorta seems that any argument going on in here is trying to say that you can't call anti-fascists who damage property bad because that equates them to fascists. Holy shit what if there are actually varying levels of badness and fascists are more bad? What a novel idea.


If you want to discuss bad thing [x] over bad thing [y], that lends more credence to bad thing [x]. Imagine someone got ran over in the street and someone kept insisting we, right this second, talk about the person who vandalized a store. "Yes," the person says, "someone died, and that's bad, but we really need to talk about this broken window and spraypaint because it is also bad."
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22nd Aug 2017, 5:08 PM #11
Zomburai

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T_Deines:Yes. This is their intention from their pov. There are people that also claim that they, themselves, are also fascists due to their movement becoming politically charged, while anarchist? I'm not clear on this. Not at the moment anyway. Not eager to add more to my search history to jog memory.


Yes, fascists and their ilk are quite eager to say that any use or threat of violence makes the other "the real fascists," which is not only a fallacy, it's a very knowing and deliberate one.

Violence is not the sole or the major determining factor of a fascist political movement.

This is what I'm looking for, thank you. For awhile I got "he offends me" "what he believed in is wrong" "I don't like it" and I felt there must be more to it than that.


Glad I could assist.

I will agree when its bigotry that is clearly intentional in most cases.


But what even started the topic was people being loud, proud advocates for their own bigotry. The "but what about--!?" and "what if some guy--!?" is a useless question when white supremacists feel comfortable marching in the street.

"What about when you don't know if they're a Nazi or not?" isn't a question I care about when I'm talking about these guys (image spoilered for violence):

[spoiler][img]https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/white-nationalist-rally-charlottesville-violence-22.jpg?w=1520&quality=85&h=1014[/img][/spoiler]

These are the guys I'm talking about. "What about--?" feels like a distraction of the issue, a red herring. These people are making it completely obvious that they're white supremacist scum by their actions and their symbols, both of which they brandish proudly.

What I also believe is that in order to fight the bigotry, we need to learn why they're bigots, why they choose this. The more you know about it, the better arguments you can have against it. The more honest the responses will be. The stronger the conversation the stronger the outcome.


I don't believe there's a conversation to be had.

This whole idea that you can out-logic a supremacist is insane to me, because white supremacy is a worldview that requires accepting things as true that are in defiance of known facts or stunningly illogical. Richard Spencer was on TV a few months ago, and had to back up his assertion that only white people have created great things and great societies by claiming the Ancient Egyptians were white.

You can't logic against that.

A quick corollary to this: One of the most consistently backed-up bits of pscyhological science we've ever found is that when one is confronted with evidence contradicting a belief one is invested in emotionally, they don't reconsider, they double down ... and the stronger the evidence, the stronger this effect is. Now think of how much emotional investment it requires to get with six or seven other guys and attack a man because of his skin color.

They have. They're idiots.

I follow up and ask that those that aren't extremists, do you wonder if they feel pressured to pick one or the other in fear of going against natural herd behaviour? Even if they don't completely believe it at the time (and might later)?


What do you mean, "aren't extremists"? I'm going to need some clarification here. Are you talking about garden-variety people who hold bigoted views?

What are your thoughts on this militant killing all the white supremacists (and others associating or looking like one) being seen as a genocide by other people due to it being a certain demographic? Because that is something they are eager to use against them.


I can't speak for JackFractal (he may have responded by the time I've finished this ****ing essay of a post), but for me:

A) I don't get behind people attacking others because they "look like" a supremacist, depending on what one means by "look like" (I feel like that entire subject involves everyone talking past each other on this thread), and

2) It's not genocide because they can stop being white supremacists any time they like.
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22nd Aug 2017, 3:37 PM #12
Zomburai

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T_Deines:That'd be fantastic, if antifa was safe.


Here's the thing, though: assuming that the definition earlier in the thread of Antifa being the action arm of anti-fascist movement is correct (I don't know that it is, but I'm happy to assume that), the correct course of action then isn't to grouse about Antifa, it's to help counter fascism. By definition, Antifa can only exist in the presence of a politically meaningful fascist movement. Dismantle fascism, and Antifa goes away. If it mutates into something else, we can deal with that something else.


I have to ask because I'm not even like 50% sure on this, but why would a statue ever be established if the person or event its for is still alive or happening? Just your thoughts I'm looking for.


Propoganda. Memorialization. Two of the Marines depicted in the Marine Corps War Memorial (the statue of the six Marines raising the flag at Iwo Jima) lived to see the Memorial itself go up, though that's not an exact example, seeing as the Memorial isn't dedicated to those soldiers specifically).

There could be other ways of it being removed if that's the case.
My hometown is split between religious and being a large home to a lot of dinosaur bones. This conflicts a LOT of things. To the point where, I think, some truth bending had to be spread so the dinosaur monuments could still stay up and the religious people can be happy. Very off topic, but relating to how I feel about not just this recent event, but what a lot of both groups want to do with history.

Here we are.
You'll have to excuse my home town. It lacks graphic and web designers.

[[Edit: A better layout link.


Oh hey, fellow Montanan!

I really, really don't want to veer this into a religious discussion, so I won't really comment on the Dinosaur Museum. But yeah, I think it's a situation that has some parallels, though I don't know we'd agree on what those parallels are.


Are they heroes because there's the assumption that people share an idea? Or are they a hero just because they have a statue?


I'm saying they're presented as heroes because the statues are obviously presenting them in a heroic light. Lee, astride a military charger, back straight, shoulders back, from an elevated position so we have to look up at him -- these are design choices that are rooted in both baseline automatic response (humans unconsciously respond to things like body language) and thousands and thousands of years of art theory (literally; Hellenistic and Roman sculptors used a lot of these same techniques). That these statues, certainly including the one whose removal sparked (or was used as the excuse for) the white supremacist protest, show these figures in a heroic light should be obvious.

I'm not against your pov, because its yours, but I wanna know more about it. I'm not going to like, smash you in the face just cause I disagree. But since I do disagree, I want to understand what's important to you so maybe I can have a different level of empathy than I did when I saw the news.

If that makes sense.


I appreciate you trying to understand.

We can start with the fact that I consider bigotry to be perhaps the single most objectively evil thing we as humans have to contend with, and there aren't many other contenders. It doesn't deserve respect. It doesn't deserve a seat at the table. It doesn't deserve a platform.

We can then move on and say that these various groups that showed up for the Unite the Right protest, even "the very fine people" who maybe weren't chanting about white power or how Jews won't replace us or who weren't brandishing torches or clubs, were still there to promote bigotry and reinforce a racist status quo. They have abdicated their humanity.
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22nd Aug 2017, 1:26 PM #13
Zomburai

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T_Deines:*head in hands at the clear misunderstanding of why she worded it the way she did*
I mean... In the same way. I could edit very few words of this and it'd also look like a sentence about Antifa and BAMN. But that's what my point entirely is about.


Yeah, but the words you'd have to change are pretty important. "Oh, they want to make America safe for non-whites and oppose fascists politically, physically, and mentally" is completely different on a moral and ethical level than "they want to make America a white country and harm American citizens of color."

I'm not ever going to claim that the ends automatically justify the means, but the ends buy you a hell of a lot of leeway.

I know that. I didn't speak otherwise. I'm talking about their perspective. What is this? xD You're preaching to a choir here. You're responding to me as if I don't know these guys are vile even though I said as such.


What I was trying to say is that their perspective doesn't matter.

To remove a text or monument because the person used for that monument was an asshole takes away the turmoil that the other side had to endure. People wouldn't be able to look at and think, "We've come so far since this dick here". You may remove the evil face of the matter, but what you also remove, is the other side too.

"Yo, what are you doing?"
"I'm breaking down this statue here. This dude was a prick."
"But he was a prick ___ years ago."
"Yes, but his ideas bother me today because there are people that think like this and see him as an inspiration."
"But what about the other people from ___ that didn't agree with him then and now? If you remove it, they might not know that there was a victory against this particular prick."
"This group and I agreed for the rest of the nation that it must go and no one will know about him/her./etc"
"But then no one will know about those that fought for the cause as well."

And so on.

I dunno, I personally disagree with defacing anything that is meant to tell a story about history. Even though its a shit part of history, it means something. I do agree with dropping a flag though. I mean, with this line of thinking, a LOT of text and stuff would be destroyed and future generations would have no idea what happened. There's a reason its in the past. But the past also needs proof. Otherwise its just... people making shit up and hoping the other side believes.


The thing I think you're missing is that these statues are, in fact, lying about the past. Most of them are lionizing these figures and downplaying what they were actually fighting for. The vast majority of these statues didn't even go up at the time these people were alive, to memorialize recent history; they went up during the Jim Crow and civil rights eras as a psychological reinforcement of white supremacy. (It seems unlikely that Lee or Davis would have wanted these statues of them, looking heroic on horseback in Confederate grays, seeing as they refused to be buried in their Confederate uniforms or have any flags of the Confederacy flown at their services.)

These are history, but not the history that you think they are. Losing a piece of art ever is always tragic in one way or another, but the monuments and statues showing these people as heroes are better off in a museum where their history can be taught and discussed and the piece can be curated. They do not need to be on top of our buildings, literally watching over our cities and where we physically need to look up to them.
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22nd Aug 2017, 1:02 PM #14
Zomburai

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Garthvader76:People do not have to worry about a fascist dictatorship in America like in Europe in the 20th century. People in America do not have to worry about invasion.
It will never happen for one simple reason
Americans are armed to the fucking teeth.
No trains to death camps.
No genocide.
There are too many guns for anyone to take and hold the country against its will.


All of this assumes that the public will couldn't turn to fascism. There's absolutely no reason that's impossible.

Also, I find the idea that "the Second Amendment protects the other amendments" absolutely laughable in practice.
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20th Aug 2017, 4:07 PM #15
Zomburai

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T_Deines:About the conflict of calling them Nazis. I agree, that even though they do this crazy stuff an wield flags and gestures and promote ideas, they honestly are glorified racists. They are under strict belief that the other side wants white genocide. The regressive left has humored, laughed and cheered at the idea that white people will become the minority in a certain number of years. There's people that want them dead or gone. Like people in BAMN. With other reasons, this is their reaction. I wouldn't go as far as to call all of them white supremacists, because in their mind, they think they're the victims. They don't really feel supreme, they feel threatened. That they will be endangered.


Oh, they just want make America a white country and harm American citizens of color, either politically, physically, or mentally, because they're scared and stupid rather than philosophically evil. I suppose that makes it all better then!

On some level it doesn't matter what got you to a march waving a Nazi flag and chanting "Jews will not replace us." Once you're advocating for white supremacy, you're the villain. It doesn't matter if they honestly think black people are living lives of luxury on the public dole while being unemployed (except their one black friend, of course); it doesn't matter if they honestly think Muslims are instituting Sharia law in America. People have a responsibility to be informed in their society, and if a grown adult is so ill-informed that holding a Confederate flag in one hand and a torch in the other and chanting "blood and soil" seems a rational and just act, then they are absolutely negligent.

One last thing on this point: the "good people" who went to this rally were still there to protest the removal of a statue of Robert E Lee, a man who turned traitor on his country to defend people's right to own human beings as property. The very best, most virtuous of that crowd were de facto still turning up to defend white supremacy. (The very, very worst of Antifa were still showing up as a counter to white supremacy; therefore, I can't find any equivalency between the two groups.)

I honestly have no idea how these symbols came into play so radically. I do remember, as a joke, someone posted them all over to trigger the left.


I remember an article, maybe ten, maybe fifteen(!)(I'm old) years ago discussing this very issue. That, because text is a "dead" method of communication, that people who do hold views such as white supremacy can and could join communities who use the language of them ironically or as a joke and neither the supremacist nor the rest of the community would be any the wiser. The supremacist thinks he's validated. The community has another member and the legitimately bigoted stuff the supremacist says gets written off and normalized a little bit.

This has been going on a long, long time.
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Result in thread: Rare webcomic tips/advice?
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10th Aug 2017, 1:26 AM #16
Zomburai

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The best advice I wish people had given me:

Start small. Smaller than that. No, smaller still. Everyone starts out wanting to make Avatar: The Last Airbender or Cerebus or The Sandman and you're not there yet.

It's a hobby, not a job.

Don't be afraid to move on. The "keep going!" or "it'll pay off any day now!" crowd is loud, and fervent, and is everywhere in the art community, but omnipresence does not equate to wisdom.

Appreciate your readers. You are not obligated to them, and don't ever let anyone trick you into thinking you are, but every one of your readers is giving up a tiny slice of their life to keep coming back to see how the story turns out. That is a precious gift.

Never assume you'll make a dime before you start. Once you're lucky enough to make some money, never assume you'll make a living. If you're one of the couple dozen who can actually make a living, never, ever, under any circumstances assume the money will keep coming without you constantly working to make that happen.
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9th Aug 2017, 1:41 AM #17
Zomburai

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All due, this is like continuing to not wear a seatbelt because you haven't died in any of the car wrecks you've been in yet.
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26th Mar 2017, 12:11 PM #18
Zomburai

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As I get older and I'm less and less a fan of prologues. The best TV show ever made (Avatar: The Last Airbender) needed no prologue at all save Katara's narration in the title sequence. Episode IV's prologue was an opening crawl of text (a technique which is incredibly overused now, particularly in webcomics, but you see my point). A Game of Thrones' prologue chapter isn't really even a prologue, it's just setting up a main subplot that isn't going to take center stage for a minute.

So, my point is, when looking at your prologue chapters, are they actually necessary? Can the information in them be included later more effectively? Will the readers find them more interesting than the upcoming journey? Do you find them more interesting than the upcoming journey, and if so, maybe the prologues are actually just the story?

I hope that gives some things to think about!
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10th Feb 2017, 1:03 PM #19
Zomburai

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Jacques LeQueef:Alternative facts is kind of the phrase of the day, but the point was that for every scientific "study" or "proof" of climate change, there exists a study that debunks it.


No. Noooooooooo.

From Wiki: "A 2013 paper in Environmental Research Letters reviewed 11,944 abstracts of scientific papers matching 'global warming' or 'global climate change'. They found 4,014 which discussed the cause of recent global warming, and of these '97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming'." Source: Quantifying the Consensus on Anthropogenic Climate Change in the Scientific Literature

So for every scientific "study" or "proof" debunking climate change, there are thirty-three that show the opposite conclusion. Just because there are two sides doesn't mean that they are equal, or that both have merit.

Also, I couldn't find these supposed think pieces about BLM calling for white genocide, despite Googling it. I found one protester saying "we need to start killing people" (who wasn't killing people), a whole mess of specious right-wing blogs making the claim that BLM or similar were advocating the murder of whites (with little to back it up), and the usual smattering of calling a reduction in the white population through interracial marriage and having fewer children "white genocide" (because the 21st century is a diction hellscape and words have no meanings anymore). So if you've got some legitimate evidence that the majority or even plurality opinion of Black Lives Matter is that genocide of whites is a good and just thing, I'm going to have to call some major B.S. on that.
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15th Dec 2016, 2:14 AM #20
Zomburai

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Rulerbrain:how long did it take you folks to get to a level in your art you at least found acceptable?


Never. My art wasn't where I wanted it when I started my comic. It wasn't there six years later when I put my comic on hiatus. It still isn't.
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"Painting is not done to decorate apartments. It is an instrument of war." -- Pablo Picasso

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