Dear tacky in-laws who I have not talked to since a single family reunion 20 years ago when you treated me like dirt. I am not going to RSVP to your kids' wedding invitation, especially since you have not even so much as made a phone call or a text since our first unpleasant meeting. Also, if you're going to address the invitation to my deadname, and you can't even spell that right, you can go on and mooch for presents elsewhere. Seriously, who the hell invites people to weddings that they don't even know?
I went to a crafting workshop at the library. Not only did I get my craft to make, but the instructor was super cool and gave me the demo that I worked off of, a scrapbooking cut out, and a handmade cloth gift bag. Everyone received this. It was all free. I am over the moon about this.
I'm taking a walk and I'm super nice little park with fitness equipment and pretty flowers. I also figured out how to make a knock-off version of all Starbucks iced latte with better quality coffee at home, so I'm not spending five bucks every time I go to St Cloud or Waite Park to take a walk in the park and do some sort of activity.
Negative: Some dude in a car screamed a sexist and potentially racist and homophobic slur at me in my native language of Spanish.
Funny: For some reason I can't shake off the fact that the mispronunciation was hilarious. Dude, if you're going to scream a slur at me in my native language, the least you can do is pronounce it correctly. Then again, at least he took the time to learn enough of my native language to be able to express his hatred at me.
Scary: That after a decade of relative peace before the ugly election, that people are openly expressing their hateful thoughts in public at random strangers. It's like the '80s except in a boring dystopian science fiction novel.
Behind the spoiler because of dying friend content warning.
My second oldest friend has cancer. He's poor because all three of his toxic ex-fiances we're long game artists, including the one who abandoned her son with him when he turned three and the one who used to beat him. Because most of his fancy friends evaporated when all the money was gone, pretty much become a recluse. If it weren't for his son, and the interactions that he has with people at the school, he would be completely alone. His self-image has been shattered. Thank God it has his son, and that he's such a good dad, because if he weren't, he would have already committed suicide by now.
I just don't know what to do with myself at this point, other than continue being supportive. It's really hard to feel like this.
windwyrm:So I'm quoting this because it's the root of the disagreement if you wish to call it that.
This is what I actually said to Shurik:
vaslittlecrow:Actually, that's not correct, though I can't blame you for feeling that way. I used to be Republican and a Mormon/Catholic.
My problem with your "disagreement" is that you turned, "Hey Shurik, I am that asshole you are talking about, and let me reassure you that horrible people like me can change. There is hope that your activism isn't going down the drain" into "How dare you have feelings and say bad things about Republicans. We need to be polite." You have completely mischaracterized what I said and I still pissed about that, because I took care to explain that tone policing ain't helpful.
windwyrm:You seem to think I said we're all too tired and frustrated to do anything.
Then what were you saying? Could you clarify rather than make incorrect assumptions about my intention and experience, like this:
windwyrm:You cannot equate politeness or purity with action and morals. Like Lutz said, the right censors and discards us the same way. Have you tried arguing with a right-leaning man? Especially as a woman or queer? The moment you show ANY emotion, they discard the argument and declare themselves "winners".
Yes, as a matter of fact, as a queer nonbinary, Black Puerto Rican person and ex-conservative/Christian who had abortions, I have successfully argued against conservatives by doing things like not following the talking points. I explained in explicit detail how I did it and the expertise I had to do it. Yet, I get the impression you saw this that this was just me showing my flex to get virtue signal points. I also explained that not everyone can or should do this, because we all have different skills and socioeconomic situations. That's why we help each other and even agreed with Lutz.
windwyrm:Again, I have nothing against you and 99% of the things you said, I agree with all, you seem to think I'm attacking everything or you as a person and if that's on my wording I'm genuinely sorry.
Again you are mischaracterizing my intentions. There is a huge difference with me telling you that you are attacking me and my perspective, and me telling you that you are not understanding me. A mischaracterization is a misunderstanding or incorrect assumption, not an attack. Does that help you understand why I am frustrated?
windwyrm:I am solely attacking your conclusion, belief, whatever, that just because people here are saying they're tired and done with conservatives it means they aren't doing anything off-site.
No you are not, because you don't seem to understand what I am trying to say at all. You are attacking a bunch of talking points that I don't even subscribe to. Furthermore and you are making patently incorrect assumptions about my intentions and what I'm supposedly saying between the lines. Can you understand why I am frustrated?
windwyrm:Hope we're on the same page now.
We are still not on the same page.
windwyrm:e: nvm we're not cuz I just saw they unsubbed anyway I'm leaving this up because like Nyomi said the point of "no don't be too aggressive" keeps coming up
I unsubbed because I wanted to clear my head. I decided to check in because I realized that I didn't give you an opportunity to respond and I had hoped that you finally understood where I was coming from. Do you finally understand what I am trying to say, or is this the point where we agree to disagree?
Edit: sorry for all the mistakes, I am honestly fuming ATM because I am super frustrated.
mightguy15:Well I probably should have saw this coming.
I asked you to answer a question. You have partly answered it in this post. That's really all I was wanting.
Also, when people react to something and you feel like your view has been misrepresented, you don't need to assume why people are feeling that way. Just clarify your view. If they still don't understand, then there's not much you can do. Written media is very difficult and patience is needed along with lots of clarification. Likewise, if you have no idea why people are reacting in a way that you didn't expect, then perhaps it would be a helpful to ask why, so you can learn as to why this is the case. I sometimes see stuff that comes across as caustic. The only way I can learn to make it more palatable is by asking for clarification and providing clarification.
For my mental health, I'm unsubscribing now. I hope that we can correct this major political problem and that we can have conversations as to how we can improve dialogue about creating a less harmful society that provides better health Care to people. I think everyone for the opportunity to let me speak on this thread.
windwyrm:@Vas I still agree with the "do your part" but the talk started from you being bothered Shurik said these people are evil and unwilling to learn/change.
I'm doing plenty, much more than my time or socioeconomic status allows if I'm honest, but you know what I did the moment my mother decided to spew qanon bullshit and started drinking bleach water during Covid lockdowns? I said fine. If she's stupid enough to believe in this, then good on her, go wild, drink bleach, hope she chokes on it. I'm done trying to argue with a wall.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Just because someone is calling right wingers names or saying they're all stubborn and vile, doesn't mean they aren't doing anything else to try and change the world for the better. And also doesn't mean they should always watch their attitude or mouth lest a random right winger hears it and faint like a Victorian lady and thus the whole planet shifts further to the right because Shurik called them evil on comicfury dot com.
I hope my stance is now clearer? Yes we agree but also I think it's completely unfair to expect everyone on the left to have tolerance of steel and never once get frustrated or vent or insult conservatives or say it's all hopeless.
No, because I don't think my stance has been understood or accurately characterized.
Believe it or not, I was one of these people who am totally okay with ill-informed people reaping the consequences of their actions. If people have access to the information, and still make harmful choices, then that's their prerogative. I feel like part of the problem that we have as a society is that we don't allow people to experience the consequences of their actions. Hence why the GOP gained so much power. When the Democratic Party had control, they should have taken action to ensure that they remained in control and that they worked in the best interest of the people. That didn't happen. Instead, they treated their oppositions feelings like precious Little things at the expense of creating a more civil, educated and inclusive society. Likewise, I feel that underestimating and misunderstanding an enemy is the surest way to get defeated by them. This is what I am objecting to
I am not asking for tolerance of toxicity or people who want to cause social harm. I educate precisely because I am intolerant of views that are patently harmful to me and others. I am good at education. That's what I do. Other people are good at stirring shit. Other people write letters. What I am not a fan of is inaction on the basis of someone being categorized under a subjective label like "evil". What does that word even mean? It's used on me quite a bit and I still haven't heard a consensus as to what it means. I think my core difference here is that I don't believe in good or evil as concepts that people can actually agree on, hence why I find them unhelpful for political debate or education. What I do believe in is determining whether something is harmful or not, which is actually a more quantifiable metric.
Nobody likes to be told that they have to do their part, because it has a gross victim blaming feel to it, and in some cases it actually is. I acknowledge that. However, the fact of the matter is that collective action matters. Even if that part is just no longer buying from an action corporation that harms people if they can afford it. If all a person can do, is no longer engaging with a relative who obstinately refuses to listen and to whom you have no emotional connection to, then that's all a person can do. There are people who will not be able to do anything, because that's simply neither their economic nor social privilege. It happens.
I agree 100% with Lutzbug in stating that certain things should be left to people with the proper expertise. My expertise is education, outreach, and the programming. This is why I would never ask anyone who is inexperienced with this and who doesn't have the energy to do it. It's hard soul-sucking work the trauma often turns impossible. Not everyone can do their part. That's just a matter of fact, and respecting that is a part of equity. However, I do have a problem with just not doing anything because of exhaustion. Poverty, family, home situation, Police surveillance, etc I can understand. What I am saying however is that in a social crisis, everyone tends to be exhausted.
I am actually on the verge of bowing out of this conversation, because I've said all I can say at this point without talking in circles. However, I feel its very important that what I'm trying to say is understood. I will hang out here to see if this clarification is understood. If it isn't, then it's not going to be helpful for me to continue pushing this narrative.
And in case anyone is wondering what my political ideology is, I'm voluntarist-lite with an anti-corporation bias, and the ability to acknowledge that in some cases you have to legislate because there's no other way.
windwyrm:Vas, I agree with you entirely in ideology.
But in practice, it's less likely to ever happen.
You said it yourself - these guys own religious establishments and work with brainwashing techniques. They own schools. They own newspapers and stations. They own the government.
As individuals, most of us don't have the energy to fight it.
I completely agree. We don't have the energy to fight it as individuals, which is why this needs to be a systemic change within the Left. I remember back in the days when Republican ideology was a disorganized mess. There was a point where the GOP feared that its party would fade into irrelevance. They didn't always have the power. They were tired too. So, they took the Left’s handbook of community organizing, grassroots governance, and skepticism.
I watched how Rush Limbaugh, who wasn't really a politician, but was really good at media and being a shock jock, put out little bits of information and tips like "we won't get the presidency, but if enough of us run for school board, the department of water management, etc., And we keep getting ourselves elected into these positions, we will eventually get the power.” and they did.
Glenn Beck, also used a technique in which he told people to be skeptical of what he was saying and do their own research, to confirm what he was saying. Since he was really good at presenting books and sources for people to look at, then basically he was able to create instant confirmation bias while creating the illusion of providing information.
I also watched the Democratic Party be in control of the Presidency, and the legislature, while having a fairly balanced Supreme Court, yet managed to lose all of the gains. It was frustrating, because they always wanted to compromise when it wasn't necessary, and they were more interested in their image than actually instituting policy that would have won the long game.
While you may have failed at convincing individuals, you may still have the power to organize boycotts, show up at protests, consider running for office, write letters to your representatives, etc. Yes you are tired, so am I. We all are. Unfortunately, wars are won and lost based on who gets too exhausted first. No I'm not going to push you to stop or continue fighting, because I am not in your body and I don't know your circumstance. What I can tell you, is that a someone who has means, I am doing my best to do my part, as my financial privilege imparts responsibility. I wish I had the ability to rest and indulge in my exhaustion, but as it is even just getting healthcare as an intersex person and navigating through life with racism, does not allow me that luxury.
I know that me not buying certain products, talking to people, or consuming certain media may not have much of a difference on an individual level. However, if enough like-minded individuals do the same, then that's how things change. Social change is not about the end of visual, but about group trends. I don't want you to feel disparaged or discounted in your exhaustion, but I do want you to know that you are not alone, because this process is tiring and never ending.
Shurik:All these people talking about 'if you think a fetus is a child, here are other policies to support' might as well talk to a brick wall. Republicans and theocrats will never support any form of social safety net to improve the lives of poor children. They are lying, possibly even to themselves. They are not good faith actors. That would be like suggesting to the nazis 'if you really hate jews, why kill them? Just use them as slave labour and gain the economic benefits'. Its like no, they didnt arrive at their position rationally. They just want to be evil.
Actually, that's not correct, though I can't blame you for feeling that way. I used to be Republican and a Mormon/Catholic. How did I end up like that in spite of hating those religions at the start? Slow indoctrination and love bombing and no alternatives at home for alternate views. You know what cured me of that? People who actually believed in me enough to slowly and systematically asked teeny tiny questions respectfully and from a place of love and friendship. The other thing that educated me, exposure to poverty frustration with the system. You know what turned me into a TERF who was just as bigoted for a while? Their love bombing me while more presumably reasonable people were basically tone policing me and acting like my former Republicanism would be incurable. I am thankfully back to a healthier ideological viewpoint because again people were willing to play the long game and ask little questions.
One thing that the Left is absolutely terrible playing the long game which is why the theocratic Right is winning. Too many on the Left are really bad with tone policing, ideological purity and their desire for model minorities. “Stay calm! We need to build bridges” on the same breath as “If you don't hold this belief exactly as I do, then you must be a hateful bigot and will never learn how to be a decent human being, because you're obviously evil.” Respectability politics are poisonous, because they drown out necessary shit-stirring voices misbehaving strategically, as well people who are radically welcoming and have the energy to do the outreach and education work that seems slow and useless.
The Right and adjacent ideologies like those and the gender critical movement are aware of this. They do a really good job educating themselves about leftist language, which is why they are so good at hijacking it, as well the Left not educating themselves on the new one says on how these toxic movements work. They love bomb anyone who has been attacked from within left the circles, or feels demonized by the same. These predatory political movements slowly indoctrinate people. Before you know it, former Black leftist hippie who had a sense of awe and wonder about science, becomes an anti-vaxxer MAGA hat racist.
Maybe, I have more faith in people because I did deprogramming/outreach work with Neo-nazis, Islamic extremists, and transphobic churches, as an NB mixed Puerto Rican. I think what a lot of us fail to understand, is that a lot of contemporary GOP ideology comes directly from cultish religious groups that are incredibly good at brainwashing and indoctrination. Accordingly, they use some of the same techniques that they use in cultish churches to turn people onto their ideas.
The Left wants victory now, which is completely understandable, because a lot of these things can turn into nightmares very quickly. Unfortunately, people who are overly concerned with respectability and doing things just right, tend to be really good at turning people off and often turn allies into enemies. Because not enough people are into the long game, the other side is winning. This is why Malcolm X would have been completely useless without Martin Luther King Jr, and vice-versa.
I mostly bring this up, because if we don't give up on people, they might surprise us years later. For example, our family member of mine who was a former Trump supporter, completely turned away from the Republicans after the Supreme Court decision. Interestingly enough, it wasn't because of women being denied access to abortion. Me attacking the pro-life movement would have only invited attack, since that's how their social script is written. It was because I have systematically been educating this family member on how transgender medical care can help intersex folks. I casually pointed out how the Supreme Court ruling would potentially affect my healthcare based on the wording, when this person celebrated the SCOTUS leak. The final straw for them was the idea that a family member might lose medical care, since that wasn't neatly addressed by the typical GOP talking points that this family member had been devouring and regurgitating mindlessly. Offscript is so powerful.
No I don't want to say that it's your job to educate anyone. I don't think anyone who hasn't chosen to be an educator should take on this responsibility. What I am asking for, is to understand that in order to defeat the GOP, you have to do work comparable to deprogramming a cult member. It's really hard. It's incredibly slow, but it can be done.
I really apologize if this comes across incorrectly, and I will gladly remove this post if it comes across as inappropriate. However, because of my experience, I don't want people to just hand of victory to the Republicans before even trying to fix this mess.
Thankfully, no. States are basically mini-countries and murder (what Texas considers abortion to be) is one of those crimes that only have jurisdiction in the state that happened.
"It’s the prosecuting authority for whichever jurisdiction the case(s) wind up being filed. If there are multiple murders across state lines, each state in which a murder occurs is going to have jurisdiction over only the murders that occur in their state. Ted Bundy is a great example, since he was known to have committed crimes in at least three states: Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, and Florida (if I recall correctly). The Feds didn’t have jurisdiction for the murders because he didn’t commit a crime of murder as defined under the US Code (though he was guilty of interstate flight to avoid prosecution). So the states worked together to come to an agreement about which would have first crack at him when he was actually captured (first in Utah, then in Florida). Had there been some procedural “hiccup” in either jurisdiction, he would still be liable for the murders in WA, OR, ID, and CO — as separate and independent trials for his crimes within those jurisdictions." - Cliff G
mitchellbravo:*can't even bring up trans dads and non binary people who are pregnant, like man if these folks disrespect women so much imagine how much they disrespect non-women with ovaries
Intersex department speaking: Don't forget women/people with Swyer's Syndrome and certain forms of chimerism who don't have functional ovaries and/or have ovotestes but can also get pregnant. Ectopic pregnancies, severe birth defects and IVF often need to be terminated. Even folks with XY chromosome can need abortions.
Speaking of which, I am relieved that I was able to get a new doctor who is not just prescribing my T for gender dysphoria, but also for my physical sexual dysfunction/dysmenorrhea (both in remission) treatment. This is happening without her forcing me to get formal treatment for CAH or putting it on my chart. (Long story as to why this is not in my best interests.) My T is no RvW-overturning-proof. My heart aches for folks without physical conditions to help protect their transgender health care with this awful SCOTUS decision.
mightguy15:OK here is where I step in to remind people it's OK to remain calm again.
The overturn does NOT criminalize abortion, it just changed its status to that of an act that can no longer be observed as a constitutional right protected by the federal government and hands that authority over to state governments. If you need an abortion in the US you still have options, just not in red states.
While this is technically on a Federal level, it's not so much on a State level. Also, as someone who has actually dealt with families in poverty, some of them can't afford bus fare, or may live somewhere without access to public transportation. Many also lack education, a social support network and may be distrustful of outside help. How do you propose folks in this position travel out of state to get an abortion?
mightguy15:I also wouldn't worry too much about A violent outbreak, Remember that the majority of the George Floyd protest were peaceful and and that there are always going to be to be outliers in any situation.
Uh, have you been to Minneapolis lately? I'm not talking the suburbs or where people have money. I was there this Tuesday, visiting a friend with cancer, an autistic child and is living in poverty. The protests were peaceful, but the police response to it (and the current lack of police enforcement because MPD is hemorrhaging cops with any level empathy) cannot be characterized as such. (NOTE: I am from a Police family but I have hated MPD since they nearly beat and shot me for standing at a bus stop.) Another friend of mine and I were basically given substandard service at a popular restaurant next to a luxury condo, because of our skin color. Which was better than the dark-skinned Black guy and the obviously Middle Eastern guy who were not given any service at all while we were there. We would've gone elsewhere, but nothing was else in Uptown was open on Monday with GF food. While there are always going to be outliers, the current political situation is making outliers into norms and that's pretty freaking scary.
I am not trying to be combative, I am just pointing out that not everyone shares the same reality in this country.
ANGRY TYPO-FILLED RANT WITH AN UNPOPULAR NUANCED VIEW: (Please, read the whole thing because it will cause knee-jerking if you don't. 100% trigger warning, because a lot of this will be triggering.)
I am not a woman. I believe that a fetus is a child. I believe that abortion is murder, a tool for genocide and eugenics, as well a shitty Band-Aid for major social problems like poverty. My abortions (though medically necessary, with one of them happening without my consent,) caused me severe psychological damage and grief that society does not seem equipped to handle. Abortion is absolutely abhorrent to me.
However, we live in a shitty society with even shittier medical care. If theocratic right-wing ideologues actually believed that a fetus represents a prenascent child, they would do what I do:
- Support comprehensive and age-appropriate sex education with talk about ALL sexual activity including solo, as well as birth control education.
- Make less invasive forms of birth control would be free and ubiquitous.
- Child-protective services would actually be competent rather than underfunded and completely inept, thus preventing incest babies at the source.
- Sex trafficking laws (not to be confused with sex work) would be absolutely brutal and the commercial rape victims would not be penalized, thus preventing a source of abortions.
- Child marriage would be completely outlawed in all states and all adults involved would be thrown in prison. This would prevent more abortions.
- Rape education and prevention would be a major social priority and so would rape laws that would actually punish criminals. This would prevent more abortions.
- End the drug war. It's the #1 destroyer of families in the US and a surprising source of abortions.
- Make it a social priority to end slut-shaming, single parent-shaming, racism, and the exclusive promotion of the heterosexual nuclear family (versus multi-generational, queer, poly and community-involved families,) as this would prevent a lot of abortions.
- Create an effective and well-funded social safety net so poor people, single parents, victims of abuse and people escaping hypocritical religious nutjobs who want their kids don't have to abort them.
- Don't force people to share custody of their kids with CONVICTED RAPISTS and ABUSERS! I mean, who the actual F thought that this was a good idea.
- Enforce separation of church and state.
- Create an effective universal health care system that prioritizes life-saving research and cures, over marketing non-curative treatment and profiteering. We're in the 21st freaking century FFS! We can do better.
- End the stigma against non-neurotypical folks and provide them and their families the resources they need to lead a decent life. Fetuses identified as potentially non-neurotypical get aborted because it's easier to do that than to actually help them.
Even with all this, abortions will still happen. Being in the position to make this choice or being forced to make this choice, can be very painful (although in some cases not.) This is why people don't need to be shamed over it. Likewise, allowing two people to be murdered or ending up with shattered lives, rather than one, because of some religious sadist's ill-informed sexist opinions, seems like a horrible policy that benefits no one. I believe meat is murder but because I have a certain health condition, I have to eat it even though I hate it and it makes my soul hurt. Likewise, even though I hate abortion and believe it's murder, it did save my life. Also to squash any assumptions about my beliefs: I'm a Deist and irreligious. I'm also child-free and have never wanted children.
My household "adopted" five families (kids, parents and all) by providing all of their expenses (including medical, and housing,) as well as help one father navigate the prison-industrial complex, to prevent them from having abortions because of poverty. We funded these families until they were ready to go out on their own. People think that this is generous, but I personally feel like this is the base minimum a person who has the means and opposes abortion should do. Did you know that this is technically illegal, because the State and Feds would rather the parents get divorced, wait years for housing and live on scraps? How do I know, because I was threatened with being reported and arrested for it. Nothing happened, but the threat was there. It should not be a crime to help people escape poverty or pay their damn medical bills.
So, with that rant, idiot-department of the SCOTUS and the natalist theo-fascists can eat monkey scrotum. Until our society stops being a dumpster fire, abortion will be frequent, illegal or not. Want to stop abortion? Create a civil and compassionate society where rational thinking can prevail so abortion can become safe, legal and rare.