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25th Oct 2012, 4:54 AM #41
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Edit: Accidental double post. Sorry! >_<
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25th Oct 2012, 5:04 AM #42
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jas:My father grew up in Alabama with a racist mother, so he had some tendencies towards that. However, the greatest thing my dad ever did was deliberately shield me from my mother's and his own racism. That allowed me to not grow up racist and made me more open-minded when I began dating and eventually found my soulmate in my wife, who happens to be African- and Native-American.
This is pretty much what I intend to do if I ever have kids of my own. It's encouraging to know that, at least in your case, it actually works.
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25th Oct 2012, 5:09 AM #43
NastradumasGotYou

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jas:That is certainly the truth, NGY! My father grew up in Alabama with a racist mother, so he had some tendencies towards that. However, the greatest thing my dad ever did was deliberately shield me from my mother's and his own racism. That allowed me to not grow up racist and made me more open-minded when I began dating and eventually found my soulmate in my wife, who happens to be African- and Native-American.

NastradumasGotYou:
We don't choose the family we're born in, we just have to learn from it and try to be the best we can.





And there you have it my friend.


Yeah. In almost all other aspects, my dad's awesome, it's just he has that dark side to him that only his children have seen of him. (Like I said, if you saw him, you'd never know.) I've done my best to learn from it, and do what I can.

One of the best helps for it is, of course, the internet--because you can't see what the person on the other side looks like, it's impossible to form the normal biases which would form if you met in person. (Yes, you can get biases over the internet, but they're of a fundamentally different nature.)

It might be one of the reasons why I prefer online interaction so much, now that I think about it. (Never really thought of it in that way, before.) Because I see the person by their words, I can identify with them much easier than if I saw the person in person.


Well, I don't know what to say but you can't let your father's action control you forever. I think it's cool to see people for who AND what they are.
25th Oct 2012, 5:21 AM #44
Blaeringr

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Centcomm:Racism : Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior.

Racism isn't just seeing the differences, it's adding that emotional slant.

People of different backgrounds do have biological differences. That is established fact and it is not racist. The most distinct differences are between people of pure African descent and the rest of the world, as they are technically partially two different species. Africans are pure homo sapiens, whereas everyone else is a cross breed of homo sapiens and homo neanderthals. Neanderthals are where blond hair, white skin and blue eyes comes from, as well as other invisible differences like a cardiovascular system that responds to changes in temperature more quickly than a pure homo sapiens' does. The result: Africans get frostbite more easily and will suffer heart attack sooner from exposure to cold.

Some ethnic groups, regardless of whatever cultural or financial situation they have grown up in have slightly higher average IQs (some Jews). Some are more prone to cancer or hematological conditions, or to other genetic "diseases".

I could go on, but the point is this: there are differences beyond just looks. Whether those differences are superficial is another matter that will depend on what you personally consider to be "better". If you are looking for the next marathon champion, it's not racist to look among the Kalenjin - it's science. If you're just looking for a friend, or a potential spouse, then of course it doesn't matter.

Racism is hating differences. But merely noticing differences is not racism.

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25th Oct 2012, 5:43 AM #45
Micheal

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Going from the first post (cause I don't want to read a lot of butthurt) I'll just say these little boys will either be nabbed soon enough or if immunity of some kind is granted they will definitely have an eye on them. They won't survive long around older boys though.
25th Oct 2012, 5:49 AM #46
MediocreMind

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Blaeringr:

Racism is hating differences. But merely noticing differences is not racism.


If only that were more widely understood.

I don't typically contribute to these sorts of conversation, primarily thanks to a couple of experiences in high school. Being one of those unfortunate few who actually managed to read a few books beyond what was strictly assigned, a single day in social studies, back when, lead me to avoid anything of the sort. When racial differences came up and I stated a few physiological differences (such as African-descended people being more prone to sickle-cell anemia or, more accurately, anyone from a high-malaria infection-rate gene pool being prone to the disease) as examples I expected to be used as a building block into a discussion on cultural/personality differences being different than racial seperation, I was quite literally forced to stand at the front of the class as an example of a racist.

This was not okay with me. The basic genetic configuration of a person means slightly less to me than someone's favorite color; irrelevant in comparison to personality type and general actions. This was, apparently, something that didn't matter to my over-zealous teacher, and I was ostracized from the majority of the student body for the remainder of my high school career because of it. I blame nobody but that teacher, but the extremity of their fervor still leaves me off-put from any serious discussion, in fear that the same should happen again.

Racism is alive and well, but it seems like the fervor of proving oneself as not racist overwhelms all basic common sense and ends up breeding a strange sort of racism in-and-of-itself. Were I more undiscriminating in who to blame, I'm sure the experience would have bred some hatred in my young mind that would have otherwise not been present.
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25th Oct 2012, 5:56 AM #47
NastradumasGotYou

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MediocreMind:
Blaeringr:

Racism is hating differences. But merely noticing differences is not racism.


If only that were more widely understood.

I don't typically contribute to these sorts of conversation, primarily thanks to a couple of experiences in high school. Being one of those unfortunate few who actually managed to read a few books beyond what was strictly assigned, a single day in social studies, back when, lead me to avoid anything of the sort. When racial differences came up and I stated a few physiological differences (such as African-descended people being more prone to sickle-cell anemia or, more accurately, anyone from a high-malaria infection-rate gene pool being prone to the disease) as examples I expected to be used as a building block into a discussion on cultural/personality differences being different than racial seperation, I was quite literally forced to stand at the front of the class as an example of a racist.

This was not okay with me. The basic genetic configuration of a person means slightly less to me than someone's favorite color; irrelevant in comparison to personality type and general actions. This was, apparently, something that didn't matter to my over-zealous teacher, and I was ostracized from the majority of the student body for the remainder of my high school career because of it. I blame nobody but that teacher, but the extremity of their fervor still leaves me off-put from any serious discussion, in fear that the same should happen again.

Racism is alive and well, but it seems like the fervor of proving oneself as not racist overwhelms all basic common sense and ends up breeding a strange sort of racism in-and-of-itself. Were I more undiscriminating in who to blame, I'm sure the experience would have bred some hatred in my young mind that would have otherwise not been present.


Oh like trying to be "Color-Blind"? I'm sorry but I find that term itself to be a laughable contradiction. @ the bold, there's nothing racist about that, there are certain illnesses/diseases that only inflicts a group of people. What I don't like is when people say "Black people have smaller brains than White people", see how ridiculous that sounds?
25th Oct 2012, 6:20 AM #48
MediocreMind

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NastradumasGotYou:
MediocreMind:
Blaeringr:

Racism is hating differences. But merely noticing differences is not racism.


If only that were more widely understood.

I don't typically contribute to these sorts of conversation, primarily thanks to a couple of experiences in high school. Being one of those unfortunate few who actually managed to read a few books beyond what was strictly assigned, a single day in social studies, back when, lead me to avoid anything of the sort. When racial differences came up and I stated a few physiological differences (such as African-descended people being more prone to sickle-cell anemia or, more accurately, anyone from a high-malaria infection-rate gene pool being prone to the disease) as examples I expected to be used as a building block into a discussion on cultural/personality differences being different than racial seperation, I was quite literally forced to stand at the front of the class as an example of a racist.

This was not okay with me. The basic genetic configuration of a person means slightly less to me than someone's favorite color; irrelevant in comparison to personality type and general actions. This was, apparently, something that didn't matter to my over-zealous teacher, and I was ostracized from the majority of the student body for the remainder of my high school career because of it. I blame nobody but that teacher, but the extremity of their fervor still leaves me off-put from any serious discussion, in fear that the same should happen again.

Racism is alive and well, but it seems like the fervor of proving oneself as not racist overwhelms all basic common sense and ends up breeding a strange sort of racism in-and-of-itself. Were I more undiscriminating in who to blame, I'm sure the experience would have bred some hatred in my young mind that would have otherwise not been present.

Oh like trying to be "Color-Blind"? I'm sorry but I find that term itself to be a laughable contradiction. @ the bold, there's nothing racist about that, there are certain illnesses/diseases that only inflicts a group of people. What I don't like is when people say "Black people have smaller brains than White people", is how ridiculous that sounds?


It's not a matter of being "color-blind"; the implication is idiotic at best. Everyone, no matter how well intentioned, is going to notice the difference in skin tone. The separation is in how you approach it, whether you see it as a mere aesthetic difference or believe it somehow truly matters when it comes to a person's personality.

Maybe it comes from a general distaste in people (I'm not a terribly far throw from misanthropy, though I try to hold myself to a higher standard than that and work hard to not fall into the trap of judging all people by a single standard), but I'd rather judge someone on how they behave rather than a physical attribute.

I agree entirely when it comes to what you pointed out, which was my point, yet that's still considered racist (I was called a liar about Familial Mediterranean Flu as well, I might add) in many people's eyes. However, claiming that any one race has a "smaller brain" than another is kind of wacky. People tried to pull the same line on women at one point, but while males tend to have more grey matter, females are more prone to a greater amount of white matter when it comes to brain structure. Neither is inherently "smarter" than the other, but our brains are simply developed in different ways.
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25th Oct 2012, 6:37 AM #49
NastradumasGotYou

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MediocreMind:
NastradumasGotYou:[QUOTE=MediocreMind][QUOTE=Blaeringr]

Racism is hating differences. But merely noticing differences is not racism.



It's not a matter of being "color-blind"; the implication is idiotic at best. Everyone, no matter how well intentioned, is going to notice the difference in skin tone. The separation is in how you approach it, whether you see it as a mere aesthetic difference or believe it somehow truly matters when it comes to a person's personality.

Maybe it comes from a general distaste in people (I'm not a terribly far throw from misanthropy, though I try to hold myself to a higher standard than that and work hard to not fall into the trap of judging all people by a single standard), but I'd rather judge someone on how they behave rather than a physical attribute.

I agree entirely when it comes to what you pointed out, which was my point, yet that's still considered racist (I was called a liar about Familial Mediterranean Flu as well, I might add) in many people's eyes. However, claiming that any one race has a "smaller brain" than another is kind of wacky. People tried to pull the same line on women at one point, but while males tend to have more grey matter, females are more prone to a greater amount of white matter when it comes to brain structure. Neither is inherently "smarter" than the other, but our brains are simply developed in different ways.



The differences will always be noticeable but I have an issue with people who claim to not be racist (this is just white people either btw) but say things like " I don't see you as a Black person" I just find that statement alone to be odd and contradictory. People's brains develop differently it all depends on the environment and genetics. I took Sociology in the Spring lol.
25th Oct 2012, 6:45 AM #50
MediocreMind

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NastradumasGotYou:


The differences will always be noticeable but I have an issue with people who claim to not be racist (this is just white people either btw) but say things like " I don't see you as a Black person" I just find that statement alone to be odd and contradictory. People's brains develop differently it all depends on the environment and genetics. I took Sociology in the Spring lol.


You'll have to clarify this for me: Are you saying that every single person MUST be racist?

I mean, I otherwise agree that it's improbable (if not impossible) for any person to take race into account when it comes to interpersonal relationships, but to declare that every person has to hold some deep-seated discrimination towards anyone not of their own race is more than a little fucked up, and I'll have to disagree with all the vehemence of someone who feels only vaguely concerned with what some stranger believes of them, and even then only on principle.

There's a difference between acknowledging that race exists, and being racist. I assume I'm just misunderstanding and you realize that, but I'd like some clarification.
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25th Oct 2012, 6:56 AM #51
NastradumasGotYou

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MediocreMind:
NastradumasGotYou:


The differences will always be noticeable but I have an issue with people who claim to not be racist (this is just white people either btw) but say things like " I don't see you as a Black person" I just find that statement alone to be odd and contradictory. People's brains develop differently it all depends on the environment and genetics. I took Sociology in the Spring lol.


You'll have to clarify this for me: Are you saying that every single person MUST be racist?

I mean, I otherwise agree that it's improbable (if not impossible) for any person to take race into account when it comes to interpersonal relationships, but to declare that every person has to hold some deep-seated discrimination towards anyone not of their own race is more than a little fucked up, and I'll have to disagree with all the vehemence of someone who feels only vaguely concerned with what some stranger believes of them, and even then only on principle.

There's a difference between acknowledging that race exists, and being racist. I assume I'm just misunderstanding and you realize that, but I'd like some clarification.


I wasn't trying to insinuate that at all but I just find those kinds of comments to be a little bizarre and I feel rather unease by those kinds of sentiments, just saying. I just don't always understand their intentions when they say that.
25th Oct 2012, 9:02 AM #52
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I've had this discussion many times, since I live in a place where racism is (in my opinion) on the rise.

When it comes to murders and news coverage in the Vancouver area, I find the biggest factor for people giving a shit and police looking really hard for the murderer, is whether the victim was a pretty girl or young woman. If she's white, she gets bonus points, and if she's from the middle or upper class, she gets more bonus points. Men are not a big deal unless they had a young wife and baby or something, and I honestly don't think I've ever seen significant coverage for an ugly girl getting murdered. Basically, news is all about sensationalism, so if it doesn't play hard with people's emotions, it doesn't go on the front page and people don't care.

On a related point, I think we're all racist, and sexist, and so on...at least at a subconscious level. What separates a bigot from a non-bigot are the conscious decisions you make to overcome your primal misgivings and distrust of people who are different from the people you are used to interacting with or giving a crap about. In other words, racism is primal, and acceptance is intentional.
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25th Oct 2012, 9:05 AM #53
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Blaeringr:
Some ethnic groups, regardless of whatever cultural or financial situation they have grown up in have slightly higher average IQs (some Jews).


This is dangerous nonesense. We barely know what intelligence is, let alone have a reliable measure for it.

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25th Oct 2012, 9:40 AM #54
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if you believe IQ is genetic, you haven't done your homework. IQ has consistently risen over the years, which researchers believe is because IQ tests are about abstract thinking. Now when it was first established this was believed to be a culturally neutral measure. This isn't true though. Yes, someone from a small african village will have a significantly lower IQ. Is it because they are less smart? No, it is because computers, smartphones and all that technical mumbo jumbo has forced us as a society to become better at abstract thinking. Same goes for improvements over time in school curriculum, whatever.

Yes, there is differences between the races, some races are more likely to get heart attacks, but bringing this up in a discussion about racism is a red herring, because it is not in any way related to racial discrimination, and I think is often linked to underlying racism in the person bringing it up.

Blaeringr:
Centcomm:Racism : Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior.

Racism isn't just seeing the differences, it's adding that emotional slant.


You can't do that. You can't take an actual definition and call it wrong because racism is <thing you heard your uncle say>. It doesn't work like that. Yeah there's multiple definitions and not necessarily one correct one, but you don't get to call one invalid because you happen to disagree with it. Just stating that one race is more intelligent than the other, without saying that you therefore hate this race is still racist as fuck.
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25th Oct 2012, 9:49 AM #55
idlottery

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<edited out by kyo cause the whole post was bad and pointless>
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25th Oct 2012, 10:02 AM #56
idlottery

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idlottery:<edited out by kyo cause the whole post was bad and pointless>


This post was NOT pointless. Granted I received an infraction for quoting the original post, and a very long one at that, but I will not have my opinion rubbished -- that is what a forum is for. for posting opinions. I do apologise for not keeping to forum rules, even though I wasnt aware of them. I should have read them first.

Mine was that the UK treats racially motivated murder like any other, and that they receive more airtime than most, if anything. My family contains different races, and in the UK if someone non white is murdered it is usually treated as more serious because of the racial motivation.
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25th Oct 2012, 10:38 AM #57
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idlottery:the UK treats racially motivated murder like any other, and that they receive more airtime than most, if anything. My family contains different races, and in the UK if someone non white is murdered it is usually treated as more serious because of the racial motivation.


The thread was not about racially motivated crime, but about how the media and the wider society might respond to a murder, depending on the race of the victim, regardless off the motivation. Not all murder victims who aren't white are victims of racist attacks.

But the reason for the UK now taking such crimes seriously is because of historical cases in which the crime was improperly investigated due to the predjudices of those in charge of that investigation, the Stephen Lawrence case being the most famous. Police tried to pass the blame onto the victim and denied any racist motive, despite ample evidence to the contrary and it was only the persistence of the family and their supporters who managed to keep the case alive.

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25th Oct 2012, 11:07 AM #58
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This is a really interesting thread.I find people's stories about how they deal or have dealt with racism in their lives thought provoking and insightful.
My first encounter with what could have been racism was when I was about 8 years old. One of the kids was an adopted mixed race black kid, whose (white) Jewish family emigrated from America. He was bullied and teased regularly. To this day, I don't know if he was bullied "because" he was black or "because" he had the unfortunate bad luck to be much bigger than anyone else. He was tall and fat and I think he actually was a gentle soul, but he looked like a bully himself. At the time there were very few black people in Israel. He was the only black person I knew. Two years later, he left the school. Shortly after he left, black Ethiopian Jews came to Israel on a mass immigration. My school opened two new classes for them. We didn't mix much with them because we had no common language, and some of them were being treated for problems you don't get in the west- like scalp and eye conditions. I remember that kind of freaked me out at the time. My school tried to encourage us to befriend them by arranging each kid to "tutor" some other immigrant kids while playing games that were nonverbal, but it wasn't a great success. Again, I'm not sure if that was racism or just a problem of culture gap. Some of the Ethiopian kids were integrated into the "regular" classes- my younger sister and brother had Ethiopian born friends - but I have moved on by then to middle school, and there were no "Ethiopian" students there. A decade after that kid left, I'm almost a hundred percent sure I saw him again riding a bus. He had grown to become obese and he definitely stood out in a crowd, but I was too shy to introduce myself to him. I felt guilty for not befriending him back then, but at the time I was being bullied too and the cruel logic of childhood social pecking order dictates that if you have a low position in the food chain, you don't make it worse by befriending someone lower than you. I remember my best friend standing up for him and being ostracized for that. Kids can be really cruel, and I don't know from where they got it from. We were all raised in nice, liberal middle class families and I don't think that singling out "the black kid" was encouraged by anyone adult.
The guilt over how this kid was treated and has led me later in life making an effort to talk to people who are different than me. I used to work for a call center that was very diverse - since they needed representatives to speak Arabic, Russian and Amharic (the language Ethiopians speak), but each group kept themselves separate during break time. The Arabs wouldn't talk to the Jews. The "Russians" wouldn't talk to Hebrew speakers, and so on. I think I was one of the only person there that was on good terms with all of these groups. I really didn't see the point of that self-moderated segregation, and noticed that if you cross the invisible lines, nothing happens to you- people respond to friendliness in like.
I know I should be a stronger person and tell more often to people aroujnnd me who say racist things to shut up but the truth is that I hate confrontations generally. I also don't think that arguing with people really makes a difference - the best thing to make people change their minds about prejudices is to get to know each other better, and that's something only the government can do by encouraging different sectors to integrate by affirmative action and a zero tolerance to any racist policy (in housing, education, employment etc.) something that my government doesn't do properly at the moment.
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25th Oct 2012, 11:24 AM #59
zippi_bird

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Reginald Parr Esq.:
Blaeringr:
Some ethnic groups, regardless of whatever cultural or financial situation they have grown up in have slightly higher average IQs (some Jews).


This is dangerous nonesense. We barely know what intelligence is, let alone have a reliable measure for it.



Yeah, as a Jew I find that really offensive. Saying something like that, even if it's supposedly possitive, is just as bad as saying something negetive like "Jews have an inherent capacity for stealing".What's more, Jews aren't a race, they are a group of people with a common religon. They did have a common middle eastern core population but since then have inetrgrated themselves with whichever country they stayed in - there are black, brown, white and even aisan jews. And the stuff about Neandrathals is a theory that at the moment isn't widely accepted, and I have yet to hear about blonde blue eyed neandrathals - no one has a clue what they really looked like - hair looses its color after all that time, eye tissue rots pretty fast. Differnt races do have slight different genetic markers, but these differences are so minute they have no effect on IQ or anything important. Most of these changes are rellatavly "young" in evolutianary terms, so therefore all humanity is built according to the same mold.
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25th Oct 2012, 12:35 PM #60
Blaeringr

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Kyo:if you believe IQ is genetic, you haven't done your homework. IQ has consistently risen over the years, which researchers believe is because IQ tests are about abstract thinking. Now when it was first established this was believed to be a culturally neutral measure. This isn't true though. Yes, someone from a small african village will have a significantly lower IQ. Is it because they are less smart? No, it is because computers, smartphones and all that technical mumbo jumbo has forced us as a society to become better at abstract thinking. Same goes for improvements over time in school curriculum, whatever.

Yes, there is differences between the races, some races are more likely to get heart attacks, but bringing this up in a discussion about racism is a red herring, because it is not in any way related to racial discrimination, and I think is often linked to underlying racism in the person bringing it up.

Blaeringr:
Centcomm:Racism : Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior.

Racism isn't just seeing the differences, it's adding that emotional slant.


You can't do that. You can't take an actual definition and call it wrong because racism is <thing you heard your uncle say>. It doesn't work like that. Yeah there's multiple definitions and not necessarily one correct one, but you don't get to call one invalid because you happen to disagree with it. Just stating that one race is more intelligent than the other, without saying that you therefore hate this race is still racist as fuck.

I don't have a lot of time to respond to this right now, but I'd mainly just like to ask you to make sure you have properly read what you are responding to. I am seeing in your response you putting words into my mouth. I did not disagree with centcomm, merely felt one part of that definition needed more emphasis. If you actually reread Centcomm's post, there is more or less what I said about the emotional slant, just in other words.

Also, I did not say "more intelligent", but if you're going to insist they don't consistently score higher on IQ tests (and that's all I said, for whatever IQ tests are worth), then you're the one not doing his homework. Ashkenazi jews DO consistently score higher on IQ tests. If it's racist to say that, then consider the universe, or God, or whatever you believe in to be racist.

If you're going to go on a holy tirade, make sure you are clearly representing what the other guy is saying. You have not done that here.

@zippy as far as what neanderthals looked like - they have completely mapped their genome. They know what they look like. You may not, but it is now established scientific fact.
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