Comic Fury Webcomic Hosting - "do you think the moderation here is insane or something?"

You are not logged in. Log in, Register, More info
Forum > ComicFury Problems, critique and suggestions > "do you think the moderation here is insane or something?"
Pages: [1] [2] [3] [4]

""do you think the moderation here is insane or something?"", 8th Apr 2014, 5:55 PM #1
biffboff

User avatar
Posts: 3419
Registration date: 13th Jan 2012
Location: Canada


This is ,of course, a quote from Kyo in the "Venting Thread" thread. It precedes a discussion that evolves into a "walking on eggshells" perception in the Forums. There seems to be an underlying assumption by some users that the Venting Thread is, was or should be less subject to Moderation and, therefor, less subject to moderate behavior.

This leads to a discussion on uneven Moderation in general - thus, the new thread.

This "walking on eggshells" perception is caused by people not knowing where they stand. It is caused by the Mods. We must first acknowledge that the Mods are human and fallible. We must further acknowledge that they work at improving their Moderation.

So, areas to improve:

The Mods must work harder at being on the Same Page. There has recently been ambiguity on how long a user should be Banned. And , no, I'm not suggesting that anyone should Post based on how long they think they'll get banned. I'm pointing out ambiguity regarding the practice of Banning, warnings, corrections, and whenthey are warranted.

Consider the use of the words "transsexual" and "transvestite". I was not aware that these can be considered slurs. Neither is the Intersex Society Of North America, nor Wiktionary, nor many other sites. If they are to be officially banned on CF, I have no problem with that - I'm not arguing for or against their use. But when even the other Mods aren't aware - then we have a problem. Same Page (different books, apparently).

This brings us to the second point. If the Mods are to engage as active Users then they must separate their Mod Voice from their User voice. Some sites do this with red fonts. At the very least, Mod pronouncements should be in a separate post; otherwise the Mod voice supersedes the User voice: "You're wrong about <this thing>. Also, DON'T USE <this word> AGAIN!" Either wear the Mod Hat or don't.

It's kinda like having your brother-in-law cop over for a BBQ. Officially, cops are never really off-duty. They are bound to uphold the Law. In practice, they'll probably over-look a little under-age drinking. Maybe even a joint. Better hide the meth-lab, though. As for anything in between - well, that depends on the Mod - er, cop, I mean. Better walk on egg-shells.
_______________________
8th Apr 2014, 6:20 PM #2
JustNoPoint

User avatar
Posts: 1323
Registration date: 17th Apr 2011
Location: Judsonia AR
I don't know how the moderation works here. I presume it is on a hidden board.

I propose 2 mod boards. A private one and a public read only board. Most all decisions should be discussed in public view for transparent moderation. Moderators should have something to note that they ARE moderators and as such an authority figure.

The private board is for more sensitive issues. Like an issue stemming from a PM or something of that nature.

Posting in colors could work but seems unnecessary. By default mod posts should not be viewed as official warnings. They should kindly tell users the direction they may want to take a discussion or what not to say. The user could even argue back a bit. But if it becomes apparent that the user is unwilling to take the advice an actual warning should be delivered. Basically the mod needs only to tell them that they are getting a for reals mod warning. Further disruption could result in moderation action.

Moderators should mention in the public board when they have warned a user or when a user might be getting out of line. Bans should be a last resort only if the user does not wish to cooperate. By default a small ban like 3 days should be given The length should then be determined by the staff in public. This gives time to let all the members of staff give their thoughts and decide if the course of action is the right one. Ban length, etc.

Reported posts should be public as well.

Transparency is key and all this helps the staff communicate their decisions better and develop the course/feeling of the forum more. And allows the users to see the why and how of the actions and understand the pattern or argue against it.
_______________________
8th Apr 2014, 6:24 PM #3
Kupocake

User avatar
Posts: 1288
Registration date: 14th Mar 2012
Location: S. California
I feel a little bit paranoid about posting in this thread to be honest because of that 'walking on eggshells' feeling that I get when I jump into the forums here. But I do feel that moderation problems do need to be addressed.

The problem, it seems, is that the mods and the users are on pretty different pages as far as social/politically correct issues. If I may jump to conclusions, I think it's fair to say that the moderators here feel strongly about social justice, and I do believe they have good intentions. On the same token, it's also unfair for the moderators to assume that the users in this forum feel as strongly about these issues as they do.

This assumption is what causes tension between certain users and moderators: nobody sees eye-to-eye, and of course, moderators have more power than the average user. Someone gets publicly lectured and then banned, and then more tension happens.

I also agree that the moderator voice/user voice blends together too often when it comes to actual moderating. I made this complaint before, but it's never been quite addressed. I'm not sure if coloring a moderating post red is the best solution, but hey who knows, it might work.
_______________________
I'm not your friendo, buddy.
[ Tumblr ] [ DeviantArt ]
image
Updates Tuesdays!
8th Apr 2014, 6:33 PM #4
Rinkel
cat face
User avatar
Posts: 5449
Registration date: 24th May 2012
Location: Prism Paradise
I just wanna jump in and say that I'm not even sure who all the mods are anymore. I know two people who are mods, but I'm not sure if there are more or if it's just them.

I also feel that the mod/user voices blend together a bit because sometimes I'm not sure if they're being a mod or just doing a "hey friend it'd be better if you didn't say such-and-such" or "this is a trigger please tag this" sort of post.

Just my two bits.
8th Apr 2014, 6:40 PM #5
rokulily
~
User avatar
Posts: 1300
Registration date: 18th Apr 2011
i've been think on this and kyo said something that was absolutely true. we, on this forum, can pretty much talk about a lot of things that would not be tolerated in many other places. we have a lot of freedom. which i personally like.

now biffboff mentions i think a very key point about why we feel like we're on eggshells. because it is so open and free we don't all know where we stand. we have to use our best judgement to know where the border of something is and if we cross a line. and if we're emotional we don't always see that line.

in gen discussion there's a mod info board. and in the news and announcement is the forum rules. if you don't explore the forums enough you wouldn't know this. i personally stay in about 3 social boards most of the time and i assume most people have their favorites too.

i don't think the moderation is insane. i think that the majority of the time it is well considered, helpful, and improving. i just think that because of how the entire forum is set up that it is difficult to manage and that we're always looking for better ways to improve it. better communication between mods and the users might help things move along. and better access to information might also help.
8th Apr 2014, 7:14 PM #6
quetzlsacatanango

User avatar
Posts: 227
Registration date: 24th Aug 2012
Location: TX
Seems to me the rule is "don't say anything that could possibly offend anyone, ever".
This is especially crazy on a site that is supposedly full of artsy, creative types, who one would think would be encouraged to express themselves.

I like to be funny and make myself and others laugh (ok, mostly myself). I have no idea what could possibly offend someone else. I am certainly not arrogant enough to expect other members to learn all about my no-no words or whatever stupid thing. If I don't like it I can either ignore it or counter it like a big boy.
That doesn't even count "edgy" or "offensive" things that are said in jest for comedic effect.
Again, the contradiction of not being able to do this on a site dedicated to hosting cartoons.
There is a certain type who looks for things to be offended by, and that type is going to find something no matter what.

So for that reason, I almost never post on the forums.

Is the moderation insane? I wouldn't go that far.
But whatever the moderation is, it makes for a pretty uninteresting forum.
Which is too bad. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
8th Apr 2014, 10:11 PM #7
JustNoPoint

User avatar
Posts: 1323
Registration date: 17th Apr 2011
Location: Judsonia AR
Can we continue the venting thread discussion here since the admin locked yet another thread that challenges his ideas on the board?
_______________________
8th Apr 2014, 10:17 PM #8
Ironscarf

User avatar
Posts: 47
Registration date: 12th Nov 2013
Location: Londinium
Sounds reasonable.

If that doesn't work out, maybe my idea of a separate forum would be worth revisiting? Peace in the valley, peace in the city...
8th Apr 2014, 10:18 PM #9
Fractals
formerly Skullbie
User avatar
Posts: 2104
Registration date: 15th Apr 2011
JustNoPoint:Can we continue the venting thread discussion here since the admin locked yet another thread that challenges his ideas on the board?


Don't forget how he gaslights too
_______________________
image
Life rafts available
8th Apr 2014, 10:21 PM #10
JustNoPoint

User avatar
Posts: 1323
Registration date: 17th Apr 2011
Location: Judsonia AR
This is the reason thread locks are bad. It leaves the issues unresolved and they can spill out. Better to contain it and let it take it's course
_______________________
8th Apr 2014, 10:29 PM #11
Ironscarf

User avatar
Posts: 47
Registration date: 12th Nov 2013
Location: Londinium
I'll carry my last post over since I don't think it was offensive or anything.

My Last Post:
Kyo:also, is that it?


This is best answered by the surviving eggshell people: I've been out of it for a while and lost track of what's acceptible some time before that. There's the rules as written, but they don't seem sufficient.

It's not always the mods of course - certain users seem to have had a free license to batter others with morality - at least, that's my perception.

e: I've always has a soft spot for you too JNP!
8th Apr 2014, 10:38 PM #12
Kyo
family life
User avatar
Posts: 17726
Registration date: 6th Jul 2008
Location: Germany
JustNoPoint:Can we continue the venting thread discussion here since the admin locked yet another thread that challenges his ideas on the board?


after 4 days and 5 pages, numerous responses from all moderators. It was only closed once it ceased being productive.

But what you are posting now is passive aggressive jabs. I won't close this thread because it's not fair to the OP - but I warn you to keep in mind that what we are doing is discussion.

RE: The thread

I think my intial response is that we have already started responding to some of these criticisms. I've instructed mods to be not biased in who gets punished, and that people shouldn't be held up to the standard of someone who is informed and cares about social justice. Changes in moderation and overall forum culture take time to notice, especially because social justice doesn't come up every day. And even when those changes show, they have to show a few times for people to be sure that they're not just outliers.

Are we all the way there? No, probably not. The mantis thing happened pretty recently and I definitely think the staff reaction wasn't ideal. We've talked about this and all staff members (me, mary, matt) agreed on this. This is a response that's lame and seems like an excuse, but I genuinely believe this to be a factor. Even the new examples that were brought up were from 4 months ago. For good reason: It's a valid criticism, but not one about something that happens every day. As such, seeing that policies are changing is also not something that will happen overnight. Changing your behaviour (as a mod, and as a user in terms of what you expect from the mods) is also not something that happens overnight.

I can only say, honestly, I swear to god, we're not just ignoring all this. We're listening, we're putting this into practice. Just bear with us. I also know this is the response that some people think is total bullshit and don't want to hear.

But the fact is, if you really think about it, what do you want us to say? We were wrong? Yes, we absolutely were. Many times. We will try to do a better job, promise. But we can't demonstrate, unless there is actual drama happening. And if there's drama happening, there's reason to complain. This is a difficult situation to address in a satisfying way exactly because it is so abstract. You tell us "do a better job", we say "you're right, we will!" you say "well, I'm waiting?". It doesn't feel like the conversation should stop there, because you're not seeing us do a better job so it feels like nothing has changed.

So this is me saying, we're listening. Promise. Take my word for it, and see. Feel free to make a thread or pm us directly if you think we screwed up.
_______________________
hello
8th Apr 2014, 11:21 PM #13
JustNoPoint

User avatar
Posts: 1323
Registration date: 17th Apr 2011
Location: Judsonia AR
It still served a purpose. The initial purpose may had shifted but it still served a purpose. You can't warn a user not to take a small jab at you if you're going to cut off a discussion in a rude manner 1st. Especially since you acknowledged it'd be bad to lock it in our eyes.

I want to believe you. But you just locked another discussion for no reason while we are telling you to stop certain patterns. That wasn't me being passive aggressive as much as it was me calling you out. Yes some claims are eccentric and/or exaggerated. Heck, some were even a little insulting/passive aggressive.

That's fine. We are not robots and we get upset. As do you. If you get upset go take a break for a bit and clear your head. I have been in a lot of forums and admin a few. This is the 1st time I've been on this side of an argument directed toward the admin or staff like this. :p Let your users vent(pun intended on original thread)

I've been called almost every name imaginable by upset users in the past and have been able to keep things from exploding and not needing to lock. You just don't like people challenging certain things. I get that. This is your baby. But don't act like its something that some of us have not been complaining about for years.

I am glad you are acknowledging that this is a problem. It took a long time though. And several years of locked threads later the issue is still not resolved. Because locking due to the "usefulness" of an active thread does not solve any issues.

But yes, thank you for admitting there is a problem. Just 11 more steps to go :p
_______________________
8th Apr 2014, 11:25 PM #14
Kyo
family life
User avatar
Posts: 17726
Registration date: 6th Jul 2008
Location: Germany
I never didn't admit there is a problem - absolutely there is one, otherwise people would not be complaining. But the last thread ended in people literally advertising other forums. That's just not a level of discourse i can take seriously anymore. To me, that's members trying to provoke and get banned. I can appreciate that it wasn't you doing this, but the discussion didn't die. It ended up here and got somewhat of an interrupt so that people could sum up and reach a conclusion, instead of bickering endlessly (this is absolutely including myself as well)

I don't think that's unhealthy. I didn't ban you or anyone, not even from continuing to discuss (as you can see I left this thread open). This usually happens, one thread gets closed, the next pops up. I don't think that's ending the conversation, but rather sending a sign to people to get it together and remember that if this isn't a conversation between both sides, there's no point in even talking to begin with.
_______________________
hello
"Trigger: warning makes a joke against women", 8th Apr 2014, 11:43 PM #15
JustNoPoint

User avatar
Posts: 1323
Registration date: 17th Apr 2011
Location: Judsonia AR
You know I'm not going to think that's a good reason for the lock though :p I understand that skullbie may have stepped out of line a bit. She kind of went past the general tension to provoke. Typical woman < see what I did there? :o

But you punished the other users by locking it. It wouldn't be endless. You could have posted your big post in that thread and things would have subsided much better IMO it is a really good post.
But it took place after you did something else that hurts your "trust me" image. There is no reason to post a response to skullbie then end the thread in a "butthurt" fashion or whatever you net people call it now.

Ignore blatant posts like that or make a small note in your post "fractals you're getting out of line, calm it down a notch please" and continue the discussion with the more legit posts. If she wants banned she would post another time in that manner, you might ask her politely with more details and/or tell her this is a real mod warning. Sometimes a user does get out of hand and needs a time out. But give them a few chances to prove that.

I don't have a good way to end this post so uhhh
_______________________
8th Apr 2014, 11:47 PM #16
Kyo
family life
User avatar
Posts: 17726
Registration date: 6th Jul 2008
Location: Germany
how did I punish them? I just do what has been proven to work. It wasn't just the advertisement that I took issue with. The general thing just felt like the arguments were getting weaker and weaker, like people were sort of forgetting what the actual point of all this was, besides being right.

In my experience, and maybe you're better at diplomatic posts than me - that may very well be - but those posts generally do not work to get a discussion back on track. I don't think I'm really breaking trust, because I shut down the thread but not the discussion. The discussion is right here, it's happening.

Also I should mention that my big post in here isn't something I had prepared. I hadn't seen this thread before, read it just now for the first time, and then thought of that response. In the other thread I felt like everyone was getting lost in details that ultimately didn't really matter.
_______________________
hello
8th Apr 2014, 11:51 PM #17
TheOneBlueGecko
Team Gecko
User avatar
Posts: 4459
Registration date: 14th Feb 2012
Location: Orange County, California
I occasionally report posts that seem problematic to me and there was one thread in particular that was troublesome to me, it was called "How do you want to die?" or something like that. As someone who has negative thoughts about hurting themselves that thread was a bit "triggering" as you might say since a lot of you seem obsessed with the idea that something might trigger someone and are "walking on eggshells" around us.

I reported that thread not because I thought my opinions had to be more important than someone else's but rather because I just wanted the mods to notice the thread and decided if it was appropriate. I got a response that was basically "I am sorry that the post bothers you, but I don't think it should be closed". Which I was fine with, it was their decision and ultimately the thread died out after a week or so and I didn't have to see it anymore.

My point is, other than a couple of incidents where people were using offensive terminology and were told not to I really don't get where all this eggshell stuff is because there is a lot of things that could be banned or removed if the mods wanted to censor things more, but they don't because of the idea that people should be able to share things that they want and things that interest them.

Seriously, I feel with all of these complaints that there are just these vague feelings of oppression more than any actual issues. And that a problem or two, where one could argue that mods were maybe too strict, becomes this imaginary scenario that just builds up in your heads and grows into something it never was.
_______________________
I support our new pirate overlords.
Comic Tumblr
8th Apr 2014, 11:53 PM #18
JustNoPoint

User avatar
Posts: 1323
Registration date: 17th Apr 2011
Location: Judsonia AR
I know, but it was happening there too. We shouldn't have had to hijack a different thread is what I'm saying. (Trying to shorten this down a bit, we are nitpicking on some things) ironscarf: post some good short thoughts that help us past this spot before we start arguing circles!

Edit: ninja'd this was a reply to kyo
_______________________
8th Apr 2014, 11:54 PM #19
Kyo
family life
User avatar
Posts: 17726
Registration date: 6th Jul 2008
Location: Germany
i actually completely forgot about that. Maybe that can put to rest some ideas about trigger warnings everywhere
_______________________
hello
8th Apr 2014, 11:58 PM #20
Ironscarf

User avatar
Posts: 47
Registration date: 12th Nov 2013
Location: Londinium
Kyo: I don't think I'm really breaking trust, because I shut down the thread but not the discussion. The discussion is right here, it's happening.


But by doing it that way, others won't now take part because a perceived shitstorm has taken place, resulting in threadlock drama, when all it really was is a discussion.

Kyo:In the other thread I felt like everyone was getting lost in details that ultimately didn't really matter.


The devil is in the details. This is not meant to be a glib comment - ignore them at your peril.

e: sorry JNP - postfail.
Forum > ComicFury Problems, critique and suggestions > "do you think the moderation here is insane or something?"
Pages: [1] [2] [3] [4]