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26th Dec 2016, 4:50 AM #361
cutething
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merry christmas to you and yours, dude. i know you don't drink, but i hope you're celebrating suitably hard :)
26th Dec 2016, 5:19 AM #362
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And I think we can also recognize when someone is having a particularly hard time and cut them a little slack.

Best of the New Year to you, Kyo. And to everyone.

2017! The year we sort this shit out, yo!
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27th Dec 2016, 8:01 PM #363
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Okay, so, it's been a few days, and so I guess I'm gonna bump this again.

To be frank, this feels like a discussion between CT and Kyo by this point. In their posts, their apparent focus is most particularly on one another, at least when Kyo is around, which I believe is creating an alienation effect that's causing some people to just stop posting. Given that this is a thread about the community in a community forum, I don't think I really need to outline the problem with this. (Though frankly, we don't have enough people chiming in to begin with.)

I made a post earlier that went, frankly, entirely unacknowledged, which gives me the idea that this is also a discussion between CT and Kyo to CT and Kyo. Which is, y'know, still a problem. This isn't to say I'm not guilty of this, though, as there are some posts in this thread I haven't given due acknowledgment to, either.

So, like, we're definitely not done here, I think. Hell, I think a lot of people have got a two cents to share that they haven't bothered to because they feel a good deal ignored in this thread.

In addition, most of our "demographic" users, which is to say, almost every user on the forums, are likely not participating in this thread due to its length and the level of discussion involved, so I think it may be time to start up a new thread (maybe in News and Announcements) sooner rather than later. Not one encouraging a complex, intellectual discussion, but one simply encouraging you to share some of your issues with moderation and the community. Obviously, we're not gonna please everyone, but knowing public opinion should really help going forward.
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27th Dec 2016, 8:17 PM #364
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i completely agree with this. and i think it's a brilliant idea to solicit and moderate a thread about one of the top tier topics in this thread (i think robotwin's outline should help to break this down into manageable chunks).

i also think that the responsibility for summarizing where things currently are and what kyo is taking into consideration (and why) should fall to kyo/the mod team.

further, if there are specific points you would like me to respond to, seeen, let me know. i did read your post, but i didn't have anything to add. it's been the holidays, though, so entirely possible i missed something.
27th Dec 2016, 8:24 PM #365
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cutething:further, if there are specific points you would like me to respond to, seeen, let me know. i did read your post, but i didn't have anything to add. it's been the holidays, though, so entirely possible i missed something.


Frankly, it's mostly just acknowledgment, or an argument. I kind of expect an argument to, like, everything I say, and in the absence of an argument, an off-to-the-side acknowledgment in a post focused on something else is fine. (Though maybe that did happen and I just missed it.)

Otherwise, it just kinda feels like something you said was ignored and cast away, y'know? (Kinda a reality check for me, too, as I've been not acknowledging posts I didn't have anything to add to.)

Merged Doublepost:

So, here's my take on a thread to ask the community on things. I tried to "translate" Robotwin's organization chart, as I feel it's more oriented for the more nuanced "moderator guidelines" side, into a few general questions. This is a draft, of course, so propose changes and tweaks at your leisure.

Title: Questions for the Community

We're hoping to improve the structure of ComicFury's rules, guidelines, and moderation, but we want input from the community as a whole, as that's what we're aiming to foster a better environment for. Please answer any of these questions that you are able to. You don't need to give us complex, nuanced answers, and you don't need to try to propose solutions, though you're free to do these things if you so wish.

If you intend to have a discussion of moderation, rules, and guidelines, please refer to [url=http://comicfury.com/forum/viewthread.php?id=28827]this other thread.[/url] We aim to keep the thread you are reading now focused on your qualms, criticisms, and opinions first and foremost.

Questions:

How do you feel about the rules and guidelines?

How, to you, could the rules and guidelines be made more clear?

How do you feel about how moderation currently handles situations?

Do you feel that moderators prevent discussion?

What kind of behavior do you think the community should encourage and discourage?

Are there any questions you feel we should be asking here that we aren't?
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27th Dec 2016, 9:16 PM #366
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damn it, seeen. i want the moderation team to do a little bit of legwork here. as much as i love and encourage the community taking an active role in this (and it SHOULD be community driven), i want the mods to have to take some ownership of this.

which is my way of saying, great work and i think it's fantastic. i just wish it was coming from the mods directly.
29th Dec 2016, 10:20 PM #367
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Seeen:
I made a post earlier that went, frankly, entirely unacknowledged, which gives me the idea that this is also a discussion between CT and Kyo to CT and Kyo. Which is, y'know, still a problem. This isn't to say I'm not guilty of this, though, as there are some posts in this thread I haven't given due acknowledgment to, either.


Fair enough, for what it's worth I definitely read your posts, I just didn't have much to say about them. It's good stuff. I tended to focus on the stuff I disagreed with in my responses, but that's fair enough. A lot of your posts were also on how to frame the discussion, which is nice but I didn't really have much to say about that. Like I said in past posts, and I really did mean that. If you feel any specific post of yours was not addressed, but should have been, please point it out and I will address it explicitly. I don't want anyone to feel ignored.

In addition, most of our "demographic" users, which is to say, almost every user on the forums, are likely not participating in this thread due to its length and the level of discussion involved, so I think it may be time to start up a new thread (maybe in News and Announcements) sooner rather than later. Not one encouraging a complex, intellectual discussion, but one simply encouraging you to share some of your issues with moderation and the community. Obviously, we're not gonna please everyone, but knowing public opinion should really help going forward.


This I disagree with, to some extent at at least. Like, wouldn't that thread just be like... this exact thread? I mean that's why this thread exists, and that's what people did in this thread. If we start another, people will repeat a whole bunch of stuff in this thread, and not before long it'll have an overwhelming number of pages again. I do have some news and announcements threads planned, asking the community for feedback on specific things/rules, but I feel that just asking for opinions, round 2 would be better done at a later point in time, when we've actually had a chance to implement some of this stuff.

We have 19 pages of problems being pointed out to us here, at some point it's an information overload. Like, we can't implement everything at once. So I disagree that another thread asking for general opinions is the way to go here. Threads in general are coming, though. I'd rather work through the list than make the list even longer at this point, because we've already identified a lot of problems.
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29th Dec 2016, 10:26 PM #368
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This I disagree with, to some extent at at least. Like, wouldn't that thread just be like... this exact thread? I mean that's why this thread exists, and that's what people did in this thread. If we start another, people will repeat a whole bunch of stuff in this thread, and not before long it'll have an overwhelming number of pages again. I do have some news and announcements threads planned, asking the community for feedback on specific things/rules, but I feel that just asking for opinions, round 2 would be better done at a later point in time, when we've actually had a chance to implement some of this stuff.

We have 19 pages of problems being pointed out to us here, at some point it's an information overload. Like, we can't implement everything at once. So I disagree that another thread asking for general opinions is the way to go here. Threads in general are coming, though.


yeah, that's fair. i dunno, i felt like maybe it would get more attention simply by virtue of being in rules and announcements, but thinking about it now i actually do find doubt in the idea that asking for discussion to be directed to another thread will actually cause it to be directed to another thread, especially given that diverting discussion like that might be a bit... counterintuitive

also, i wouldn't say we have 19 pages of problems here? it seems like it's mostly a natural progression into discovering and sorting out a few core problems for the most part. i'm glad to hear there are threads coming though because i am still very concerned about some of the "how" involved so
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29th Dec 2016, 10:32 PM #369
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sure, that's true. It's not literally 19 pages of complaints.

Anyway, since y'all probably want to know what's happening, and it's only fair that I tell you as well, so you don't feel like "thread's over, back to slacking" is the mod mantra here.

-better mod tools
-Work out mod guidelines
-Re work rules

those are the first 3 things that we're going to tackle, in parallel, since I think they are kind of the foundation to everything else. Pretty broad topics obviously, for example, before we write mod guidelines and rules, we have to figure out exactly what we do want to and what we don't want to moderate, then turn that into respective mod guidelines and rules. Once we've done that, we gotta move on to the how (when do we warn, when do we ban, how long, how do warnings happen, what should mod pms look like, when should mods post in threads rather than going to pm, etc...), you get the idea.

e: in regards to the threads, it'll mostly be questions on how the community wants to be run. So like, e.g. what people think of dislikes, and just specific questions of rules (e.g. whether we should keep our rule for necroposting)

e2: also i made a thread in the staff forum asking mods to list anything they moderated that's not actually covered by the rules. if you got any personal examples, you can pm em to me or post em here
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7th Jan 2017, 3:13 PM #370
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So it's been ~a week since any activity here, and my understanding is that Kyo's doing some sorta behind-the-scenes-y stuff, so I thought it'd be a good time to ask how that's progressing.
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8th Jan 2017, 5:43 AM #371
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Been taking notes on recent mod activity, watching for anything that should be in the mod guidelines. I'm currently in the process of writing up new rules/mod guidelines. after my initial draft is done, I'll do a news thread/some news threads on the undecided points. For that I also have to hack up a lil' poll thing because I only want active forum members to be able to vote (say, has made 15 posts). Sorry, I know a lot of silence right now
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8th Jan 2017, 6:50 AM #372
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It's totally fair! I myself trust that stuff is happening, but I appreciate Xeno checking up, as I feel that if we're going to encourage more transparency, we should do it as a community, too, and that means asking what's going on.

That just kinda felt worth saying, I guess. The importance of community participation is something I feel needs some focus, and I know it's all being built around that...

... Okay, in all honesty, I'm mostly being redundant for the sake of clarity and potential discourse.
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8th Jan 2017, 7:27 PM #373
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A poll sounds scary when thinking about fighting majorities, but I'm willing to give that a chance.
9th Jan 2017, 8:55 AM #374
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i mean, it's not like every rule is up for vote
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9th Jan 2017, 10:08 AM #375
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Are you going to go with the majority for everything that's put up for vote or just take it into account?

Is there a hint at what sort of rules we are talking about?
9th Jan 2017, 12:43 PM #376
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My biggest concern with a poll is that, at a glance, a lot of changes are being proposed without an immediately obvious benefit. Look at the early pages of this thread, for example: it took us several pages to even come up with a problem statement, and pretty much everyone who contributed is an enfranchised forumite. If, therefore, the poll is constructed as a binary "yes, do that"/"no, don't do that", there will be a bias towards the negative option as status quo, not because people don't like the change proposed but because they're simply not involved enough with the forum to be aware of the issues yet. I'd like to see a somewhat more in-depth spectrum of answers, including an "eh, don't care".
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9th Jan 2017, 12:55 PM #377
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Xeno:there will be a bias towards the negative option as status quo, not because people don't like the change proposed but because they're simply not involved enough with the forum to be aware of the issues yet.


Eh, "lack of involvement" will be translated into "lack of voting". I may be wrong, but I don't think there's a massive get-your-hands-off-my-forum contingent here.

That said, I agree:

I'd like to see a somewhat more in-depth spectrum of answers, including an "eh, don't care".


I am strongly in favor of anything that increases user say-so with the management, even if it is to communicate ambivalence.
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10th Jan 2017, 8:55 AM #378
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Xenocartographer:My biggest concern with a poll is that, at a glance, a lot of changes are being proposed without an immediately obvious benefit. Look at the early pages of this thread, for example: it took us several pages to even come up with a problem statement, and pretty much everyone who contributed is an enfranchised forumite. If, therefore, the poll is constructed as a binary "yes, do that"/"no, don't do that", there will be a bias towards the negative option as status quo, not because people don't like the change proposed but because they're simply not involved enough with the forum to be aware of the issues yet. I'd like to see a somewhat more in-depth spectrum of answers, including an "eh, don't care".


i was actually thinking the same thing to prevent people who feel obligated to vote but don't really care from screwing with the results.

and the votes would be used as the final say. It's mostly stuff where I don't see the point of vetoing it. If I felt that strongly I wouldn't put it up to vote to begin with unless someone had a compelling counterargument
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11th Jan 2017, 8:49 AM #379
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first discussion thread is up,

looky here

obviously there was quite a bit of discussion on this in here already, but I thought it was a good point to also pitch to the community at large, especially because I'm still not really sure what the best approach is

if you already talked about it in here, don't feel guilty if you repeat yourself in there, it's mostly it's own thread to make sure everyone has a look. If you don't feel like repeating yourself that is obviously also fine, I'm aware of the stuff in here so it won't fall by the wayside
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Forum > ComicFury Problems, critique and suggestions > The tricky problem of forum drama - a legalist approach
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