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"what to except from superhero comic?", 18th Jun 2017, 9:18 AM #1
Taz Hassiotis

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hey, guys!

im curently working on a superhero comic named: TURTLEBOY.

and im actually trying to make a awsome story that is lightharted, hero is fighting the bad guys, is more optimistic and helpfull to anyone!

but since im still not sure what will hapen in upcoming seaquels (i have only ideas who will apear and some spin-offs from the series focusing on other characters, but its just ideas so far)

and here is my main question:
WHAT DO YOU EXCEPT FROM SUPERHERO COMICS!
or better
WHat do you miss or is missing in the recent superhero comics ?
and
What annoys you in curent superheros in overall media (comics, movies, cartoons and etc.) ?

this will be rreally helpfull and could help me what i could do better in my upcoming project :)

ill be happy for any replys or awnsers, and it will make the progress of my project lil bit easier.

have a good day
TAZ
18th Jun 2017, 10:37 AM #2
Guybrush20X6

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What I miss from Superhero comics is a lack of subtly and allegory in their social commentary. It's all too on the nose these days. The X-Men were meant to be representative of the Civil rights movement and the Brotherhood of mutants representative of the separative side but it was adapted, with no problem to also be an allegory for homosexuality. It wasn't forced down your throat (most of the time).

These days the villains of female and gay heroes just loudly declare that they hate woman and (slur)s before getting beaten. And if Red Skull's most diabolical scheme is to get elected on the current president's platform then he's taken quite a few steps back. (Though does say something about about his policies...)

I however suspect you won't plan to do heavy themes, at least not at first.

In broader terms, I don't like how there's massive amounts of continuity that you have to keep up with but that's less an issue for webcomics as all the relevant material is collected in one place.

And one final thing that annoys me, characters that get mad when secrets are kept from them, only to hide secrets themselves. It's like the CW only knows how to write hypocrites.
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18th Jun 2017, 1:12 PM #3
deerwithgoggles

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i hate it when characters in superhero comics always talk like they're robots and state the obvious even though the obvious is clearly onscreen with them

superhero, talking to no one: The Slicer of T'pire Weir Isles- it's all the way at the top of that ledge! Too high for me to jump to... and without my whip, I can't pull it down!

me: thanks i'm glad you remembered i'm a fucking idiot
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18th Jun 2017, 1:33 PM #4
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18th Jun 2017, 2:06 PM #5
Jean_Q_Citizen

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deerwithgoggles:i hate it when characters in superhero comics always talk like they're robots and state the obvious even though the obvious is clearly onscreen with them

superhero, talking to no one: The Slicer of T'pire Weir Isles- it's all the way at the top of that ledge! Too high for me to jump to... and without my whip, I can't pull it down!

me: thanks i'm glad you remembered i'm a fucking idiot


That only works for Adam West Batman. Then, it's glorious.

So, basically, unless you're doing it intentionally campy, or it's a parody, no. Just no.
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18th Jun 2017, 3:01 PM #6
GMan003

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First, examine your fundamental premise: does the world even need yet another superhero comic? It's literally a century-old genre, old enough that even the parodies are stale and unoriginal. They dominate the print comics, the box office, and are even a staple of television. What are you doing that has never been done before? Doing a deliberate retro-style story won't cut it, because those are also dime-a-dozen. And don't fall back on the classic "it's been done before but I'm going to do it better" excuse, because no, you're not. If you had even a chance of competing with the titans of the genre, you wouldn't need to ask questions like this.

Here's my answer - novelty. People want something new. Not just new powers wrapped around the same old story, or a new combination of traits in a protagonist, give us something legitimately new.

Your best bet, I feel, is combining with another genre. That's been successful at getting my readership, at least. There's plenty of superhero/scifi mashups - but what about superhero/high fantasy? Superhero sitcoms are all over, but what about superhero romcoms? Japanese influences have brought us not just manga-like art, but superhero/tokusatsu blends - try borrowing from another manga genre, maybe a harem manga but-with-superheroes could work? Or borrow from other media - a heavy-metal superhero, or a German Expressionist superhero, or something.

I'm sure even those have been done before, but they're obscure enough that I can't immediately list a dozen of them, the way I can for "superhero comics with light good-vs-evil stories".
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18th Jun 2017, 7:53 PM #7
Steven-Vincent

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GMan003:First, examine your fundamental premise: does the world even need yet another superhero comic? It's literally a century-old genre, old enough that even the parodies are stale and unoriginal.


So is your argument that any genre that is 100+ years old is not worth using as a basis for creative work? What does that mean for the murder mystery? The fantasy adventure? The revenge tragedy? The romantic comedy? The buddy story? The western? In fact I can't think of a single genre that hasn't been around for as long as the superhero genre, and most for a whole heck of a lot longer (revenge tragedy is at least 2,000 years old, thanks to the ancient Greeks). To dismiss anything venerable out of hand just because it is venerable seems pretty callous and beyond that, ignores the fact that long-standing genres are there for a reason (i.e., people like them),.

GMan003:They dominate the print comics, the box office, and are even a staple of television.


Superheroes dominate the print and other media. The superhero genre, as classically instituted, is almost nowhere to be seen. I'll get to that a little later, but I think you are making the mistake that if it wears bright colors and has a funny name (Wonder Woman) it's automatically following the superhero genre conventions. Most modern superhero stories do not.

What are you doing that has never been done before? Doing a deliberate retro-style story won't cut it, because those are also dime-a-dozen.


So don't read it. Please don't discourage the OP from doing it if he wants to. Some of us LIKE retro stories. Bronze Age is my preference. Do a good Bronze Age style story and I'll be there with bells on. Those are actually quite original now, because they have rarely been seen for nearly 30 years (since Miller and Moore in the mid-80s).

And don't fall back on the classic "it's been done before but I'm going to do it better" excuse, because no, you're not. If you had even a chance of competing with the titans of the genre, you wouldn't need to ask questions like this.


I find this comment unnecessarily combative. GMan, I usually like your posts but there is no reason to come down on the OP this way. You seem not to like classic supehero stories. Fine, that's your preference. Why rain on the OP's parade about it? Some of us DO like them.

And I'd submit that if you were to go and actually read Marvel and DC as they are being written right now, it won't be hard at all for the OP to do it better than they are. A chimpanzee writing stories with children's blocks and crayons could do better than what people like Johns, Morrison, and Bendis are putting out these days.

Here's my answer - novelty. People want something new. Not just new powers wrapped around the same old story, or a new combination of traits in a protagonist, give us something legitimately new.


This is YOUR answer. But I would caution the OP against you knowing what 'people' want. You can't know what anyone wants but you.

If your premise that people don't like old-school superhero comics is correct, then people doing the classic style would not have subscribers. But they do. So this statement about what 'people' want is full of it. Sorry if that's harsh, but I call 'em like I see 'em. And I don't like seeing an enthusiastic new creator being discouraged like this because you personally happen to dislike what he wants to do.

And 'novelty' you say -- like Zack Snyder's vision of Superman, all dark and brooding and Batman-y -- that kind of novelty? Snapping necks and destroying whole cities and never pausing to save an innocent, with a Pa Kent who tells him it's better to let someone drown than reveal his secret ID... that kind of novelty? If that's what one means by novelty -- you can keep it. No thanks.

To the OP, there is tons of room in the world for a classical superhero comic. If that's what you want to make, do that.

Your best bet, I feel, is combining with another genre.


If the OP wants to do it this is fine. But it is not any more likely to get a following than a standard superhero story will. In fact, less. Because now you need people who like one genre to be open-minded about the other genre. Not everyone will be.

To the OP...

To me, what makes a good superhero story is to have the classic elements of the genre. These include:
The secret ID with lots of time spent in that ID and protecting it
Long, over-the-top speeches
Complicated death traps
Codes against killing
Heroes protecting innocents at great personal risk/cost
Brightly colored costumes
Larger-than-life characters and powers

I urge you to stay away from the 'gritty' stuff. That is being done to death by print and by much of the movie content. So it will seem like you are just copying what they are doing. But if you do classic stuff like Ace Maxwell, you will definitely fine an audience -- of all the people like me who prefer the classical style of superhero stories.
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18th Jun 2017, 8:22 PM #8
NeilKapit

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Steven-Vincent:And I'd submit that if you were to go and actually read Marvel and DC as they are being written right now, it won't be hard at all for the OP to do it better than they are. A chimpanzee writing stories with children's blocks and crayons could do better than what people like Johns, Morrison, and Bendis are putting out these days.


Based on what criteria? (Especially regarding Grant Morrison)
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18th Jun 2017, 9:20 PM #9
Steven-Vincent

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Clearly it is a matter of taste. Just like most of what GMan said is a matter of taste.

I find Morrison's work to be very, for lack of a better term, kudzu-plotty. And I don't like kudzu plots.
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18th Jun 2017, 9:42 PM #10
NeilKapit

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In which case, if it's a matter of taste, it's not of the quality of "a chimpanzee writing stories with children's blocks and crayons". "I don't like this" and "this is terrible" are two completely different things.

Also, there are plenty of people (myself included) who do like complicated stories.
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18th Jun 2017, 9:56 PM #11
Nyomi
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im a lazy piece of shit so im not quoting but @gman, "theres nothing new under the sun." its less the premise and more the execution that matter. superhero stuff is done a lot, but that doesnt mean a good superhero story isnt gonna get readers- at least i think.

OP, this might be a given, but you may wanna spellcheck your comic when you make it. theres a lot of mispellings in this thread and theyre kind of distracting. that aside, welcome to CF! :D

i expect, um... theres nothing too special about the superhero genre that i wouldnt expect from any other genre. the powers to be cool and make sense? no weird plot holes? yknow

ass pulls in superhero (or even just "people with powers") stories are the bane of my existence. if a character dies or fails dont make up some random ass magic to bring them to life with no consequences. thats a huge nono.
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18th Jun 2017, 10:32 PM #12
Steven-Vincent

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NeilKapit:In which case, if it's a matter of taste, it's not of the quality of "a chimpanzee writing stories with children's blocks and crayons". "I don't like this" and "this is terrible" are two completely different things.


No, they're not. Implicitly any quality judgement is subjective and therefore saying 'this is terrible' and 'I think this is terrible in my own opinion' are synonymous by definition, and one just uses more words than the other.

I still think Morrison could be improved by having a chimp write instead of him but yes that is my opinion.

Also, there are plenty of people (myself included) who do like complicated stories.


Complications and kudzu plots are not remotely the same thing.
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18th Jun 2017, 11:48 PM #13
NeilKapit

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Steven-Vincent:No, they're not. Implicitly any quality judgement is subjective and therefore saying 'this is terrible' and 'I think this is terrible in my own opinion' are synonymous by definition, and one just uses more words than the other.

I still think Morrison could be improved by having a chimp write instead of him but yes that is my opinion.


If all opinions are equal, even in art, then there's no point in any form of education, critique, or schooling, and there's no point in talking about it. If there are some kind of standards for craft in comics storytelling that've been defined by decades and decades of practice and discourse, then opinions have different weights, especially those that can't be backed up beyond "I personally don't like it".

Certainly not every Morrison work will be his best work, and he does have a fairly hit-or-miss record based on both the quantity of his output and the outlandishness of his style, but the importance of his hits cannot be overstated. A lot of what we know about what can be done with comics and superhero writing has been proven by Morrison, as he's done landmark works like Animal Man, The Invisibles, Doom Patrol, The Filth, We3, All-Star Superman, Seaguy, and Arkham Asylum. Even his long runs on various flagship superhero books like JLA, X-Men, and Batman have epic stories that have radically transformed the respective characters across multiple mediums. His contributions to the world of comics shouldn't be dismissed by saying that a chimp could write better, at least not without a lot of argument and evidence to back it up.

Steven-Vincent:Complications and kudzu plots are not remotely the same thing.


They are when the complication is done to make a larger thematic point-- Morrison comics are always about something, instead of just twisting the plot around for its own sake.

Merged Doublepost:

Taz Hassiotis:hey, guys!

im curently working on a superhero comic named: TURTLEBOY.

and im actually trying to make a awsome story that is lightharted, hero is fighting the bad guys, is more optimistic and helpfull to anyone!

but since im still not sure what will hapen in upcoming seaquels (i have only ideas who will apear and some spin-offs from the series focusing on other characters, but its just ideas so far)

and here is my main question:
WHAT DO YOU EXCEPT FROM SUPERHERO COMICS!
or better
WHat do you miss or is missing in the recent superhero comics ?
and
What annoys you in curent superheros in overall media (comics, movies, cartoons and etc.) ?

this will be rreally helpfull and could help me what i could do better in my upcoming project :)

ill be happy for any replys or awnsers, and it will make the progress of my project lil bit easier.

have a good day
TAZ


And I realize that I kind of derailed the thread with my Morrison obsession and my compulsion to defend his good name, so I'll apologize and answer these questions--

1.) Depends on the comic, but I have a very liberal definition of what constitutes a superhero-- basically, a fancy look and/or name, an ability that couldn't quite manifest in reality, and a sense of purpose driven towards righting wrongs in the world.

2.) I could go on all day about this, but when current superhero comics are defined by characters owned by corporations with decades upon decades of history but no real ability to age or change, there's no point.

3.) The lack of lasting consequences to what heroes do, especially if they do things that are flagrantly destructive or amoral. Recent Marvel movies like Age of Ultron and Civil War basically show that all these guys are self-centered assholes who cause more threats to the public than prevent.
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19th Jun 2017, 12:44 AM #14
MK_Wizard

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Here are my three answers:

- First, a superhero is supposed to embody hope and the best of humanity. While it is ok to make them someone we can relate to, they should also be good people.

- What I really miss seeing in superheroes is for them to stay good people. I can understand them going through their sad moments and depressions, but they should not become no better than the villains. In other words, I miss seeing good truly triumph over evil.

- What I really hate in the superhero media right now is that they are less about action and hope, and more about drama, backstabbing and who kissed who like some soap opera.

Hope this helps!
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19th Jun 2017, 12:48 AM #15
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Hi OP. Based on what you said, you should follow Liberty Lass man's advice. Your questions are based on opinions so you'll find different answers since everyone has various tastes. I am curious about your Turtleboy. What's his superpowers?

1. WHat do you miss or is missing in the recent superhero comics ?
Trying out new things aka innovation. This goes for all entertainment media. People just don't want to push for new experimental things anymore because they just wanna make profit and popularity the safe way.

2. What annoys you in curent superheros in overall media (comics, movies, cartoons and etc.) ?
Being too wordy is one thing. Appealing to the masses too hard is another. I just recently watched Wonder Woman and when they invoked the 'red herring' i just sighed internally because it's been a common trope in movies recently. TOO COMMON. I guess I'm just the type of aficionado who likes seeing new things or old things done in new ways.
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19th Jun 2017, 1:37 AM #16
Steven-Vincent

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MK_Wizard:Here are my three answers:

- First, a superhero is supposed to embody hope and the best of humanity. While it is ok to make them someone we can relate to, they should also be good people.

- What I really miss seeing in superheroes is for them to stay good people. I can understand them going through their sad moments and depressions, but they should not become no better than the villains. In other words, I miss seeing good truly triumph over evil.

- What I really hate in the superhero media right now is that they are less about action and hope, and more about drama, backstabbing and who kissed who like some soap opera.

Hope this helps!


^^^ All of this. x 10.
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19th Jun 2017, 1:56 AM #17
GMan003

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Steven-Vincent:So is your argument that any genre that is 100+ years old is not worth using as a basis for creative work? What does that mean for the murder mystery? The fantasy adventure? The revenge tragedy? The romantic comedy? The buddy story? The western? In fact I can't think of a single genre that hasn't been around for as long as the superhero genre, and most for a whole heck of a lot longer (revenge tragedy is at least 2,000 years old, thanks to the ancient Greeks). To dismiss anything venerable out of hand just because it is venerable seems pretty callous and beyond that, ignores the fact that long-standing genres are there for a reason (i.e., people like them),.


That is not my argument at all. The superhero genre is relatively new, by literary standards, but it's a repetitive and incestuous genre. Since it spent so much time as a niche genre, it ended up being written primarily by strong fans of that niche - and so it rarely strayed from that niche. Even the deconstructions and parodies remained in that same story space, although with some self-awareness.

Contributing to the problem is that the genre has been dominated by two big publishers for much of its century. Single authors might make their name in a genre but the genre never belonged to them. Agatha Christie churned out murder mysteries but she didn't own the genre to the point of extinguishing competition.

That powerful corporate control has led to single characters lasting longer than in most contemporary media. The only thing that comes close is Mickey Mouse - whose stories, not coincidentally, haven't been good in quite some time.

Steven-Vincent:Superheroes dominate the print and other media. The superhero genre, as classically instituted, is almost nowhere to be seen. I'll get to that a little later, but I think you are making the mistake that if it wears bright colors and has a funny name (Wonder Woman) it's automatically following the superhero genre conventions. Most modern superhero stories do not.


I don't think you ever got back to this point. Mind elaborating?

Steven-Vincent:So don't read it. Please don't discourage the OP from doing it if he wants to. Some of us LIKE retro stories. Bronze Age is my preference. Do a good Bronze Age style story and I'll be there with bells on. Those are actually quite original now, because they have rarely been seen for nearly 30 years (since Miller and Moore in the mid-80s).


OP is presenting a contradictory question: he's strongly implying some sort of retro, classic, superhero story, but is asking what we're tired of seeing. The obvious answer is that we're tired of seeing all the common points of such stories, if not the entire genre. I was not attempting to discourage, but to encourage channeling that creativity towards something with more actual creativity.

(And since you chided me for over-generalizing my own experience: perhaps the person who is so obsessed with classic-style superhero stories as to be creating and publishing his own is not the most objective judge of whether that subgenre is viable.)

Steven-Vincent:I find this comment unnecessarily combative. GMan, I usually like your posts but there is no reason to come down on the OP this way.


Not at all. This is not a site for experts or professionals. Plenty of us want to be, perhaps a few of us have grown to that level over time, but as a rule, if you're here, you aren't great yet. I include myself in this description - in fact, I am specifically less skilled at actual comic-making than most active people here.

Further, if one has to ask questions like this, they clearly lack experience. You're not going to come out of nowhere and create a masterpiece on your first-ever story. Skill comes from practice, and if one either lacks the knowledge or lacks the confidence to answer this question themself, they clearly haven't done that much work.

Steven-Vincent:And I'd submit that if you were to go and actually read Marvel and DC as they are being written right now, it won't be hard at all for the OP to do it better than they are. A chimpanzee writing stories with children's blocks and crayons could do better than what people like Johns, Morrison, and Bendis are putting out these days.


I gave DC a chance with New 52. Gave Marvel a chance a few years before. They have a couple really good people scattered across the entire company, and the dictates of the executives clearly doesn't let them do their best work. A literal chimp would be hyperbole but it would not be hard for a moderately-skill creator, working on a passion project without constraints, to do better.

But you don't just have to compete with whatever the Big Two are putting out right now. You're competing with the entire corpus of work. You aren't just competing with whatever presumably-dumb Superman story is being printed right now, you have to compete with All-Star Superman and Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? and all the other classics.

And that's a much taller order.

Writers in other genres do the same trick I suggested. Fantasy writers all live in the shadow of Tolkien - so they give us "that, except with realistic medieval societies", or "that, except with bitchin dragons", or "that, except in a knockoff of medieval Japan instead of medieval Europe". It's hard to compete on quality because even if you are legitimately better, how are you going to draw readers in, when they could read something else and at least be guaranteed that it's a new type of suck.

Steven-Vincent:If your premise that people don't like old-school superhero comics is correct, then people doing the classic style would not have subscribers. But they do. So this statement about what 'people' want is full of it. Sorry if that's harsh, but I call 'em like I see 'em. And I don't like seeing an enthusiastic new creator being discouraged like this because you personally happen to dislike what he wants to do.


You exaggerate my claim in order to disprove it. I didn't say "nobody" would read a pitch-perfect golden-age superhero story. I was answering the OP's question, which was what I think. I based my answer on what I believe to be fairly common sentiments, but I never claimed to speak for all of humanity on the subject of superhero comics.

Steven-Vincent:And 'novelty' you say -- like Zack Snyder's vision of Superman, all dark and brooding and Batman-y -- that kind of novelty? Snapping necks and destroying whole cities and never pausing to save an innocent, with a Pa Kent who tells him it's better to let someone drown than reveal his secret ID... that kind of novelty? If that's what one means by novelty -- you can keep it. No thanks.


Fuck no. That's not even new - we spent like ten years doing exactly that in print. I lived through the 90s, man - I have seen pointless stupid dark shit.

Look at the examples I gave of new ideas. Does "superhero romantic comedy", "heavy metal superhero" or "superheroes in a high fantasy setting" sound anything like the surge of modern, gritty, so-called realistic superheroes?
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"reply to MK Wizard", 19th Jun 2017, 8:47 AM #18
Taz Hassiotis

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MK_Wizard:Here are my three answers:

1)- First, a superhero is supposed to embody hope and the best of humanity. While it is ok to make them someone we can relate to, they should also be good people.

2)- What I really miss seeing in superheroes is for them to stay good people. I can understand them going through their sad moments and depressions, but they should not become no better than the villains. In other words, I miss seeing good truly triumph over evil.

3)- What I really hate in the superhero media right now is that they are less about action and hope, and more about drama, backstabbing and who kissed who like some soap opera.

Hope this helps!


1) oh my character is good, even though he is still kid he is! and it will show the best of the old forgoten days of superheros
2)no worries there -heros of my will fight vilains,
3) there will be action and sense of hope- drama a little i guess, no backstabing- and no worries no romance ( the hero is still a kid not to mention)


oh it definitley did!

Merged Doublepost:

1)
Guybrush20X6:What I miss from Superhero comics is a lack of subtly and allegory in their social commentary. It's all too on the nose these days. The X-Men were meant to be representative of the Civil rights movement and the Brotherhood of mutants representative of the separative side but it was adapted, with no problem to also be an allegory for homosexuality. It wasn't forced down your throat (most of the time).

These days the villains of female and gay heroes just loudly declare that they hate woman and (slur)s before getting beaten. And if Red Skull's most diabolical scheme is to get elected on the current president's platform then he's taken quite a few steps back. (Though does say something about about his policies...)

I however suspect you won't plan to do heavy themes, at least not at first.

2) In broader terms, I don't like how there's massive amounts of continuity that you have to keep up with but that's less an issue for webcomics as all the relevant material is collected in one place.

3) And one final thing that annoys me, characters that get mad when secrets are kept from them, only to hide secrets themselves. It's like the CW only knows how to write hypocrites.



1) i cant promise the alegory, but definitley will show the good old days of the ganre
2) ehhh there will be some spinoffs and coninuty with characters ( because i do plan doing something big with the character) but ill do my best to not make it into some giant mess, if ya understand
3) well maybe this series is for ya...just saying... because i do plan something like this with heros ID to be revealed to other characters, but ill plan not to do this to make the characters mad, maybe confused, but still that part is in development

man thanks- this one was really helpfull! :)

Merged Doublepost:

deerwithgoggles:i hate it when characters in superhero comics always talk like they're robots and state the obvious even though the obvious is clearly onscreen with them

superhero, talking to no one: The Slicer of T'pire Weir Isles- it's all the way at the top of that ledge! Too high for me to jump to... and without my whip, I can't pull it down!

me: thanks i'm glad you remembered i'm a fucking idiot


-- oh man i hate that too! But I'm not going to do tha for 100%

thanks- i can asure you this wont happen in my series

Merged Doublepost:

Steven-Vincent:So is your argument that any genre that is 100+ years old is not worth using as a basis for creative work? What does that mean for the murder mystery? The fantasy adventure? The revenge tragedy? The romantic comedy? The buddy story? The western? In fact I can't think of a single genre that hasn't been around for as long as the superhero genre, and most for a whole heck of a lot longer (revenge tragedy is at least 2,000 years old, thanks to the ancient Greeks). To dismiss anything venerable out of hand just because it is venerable seems pretty callous and beyond that, ignores the fact that long-standing genres are there for a reason (i.e., people like them),.



Superheroes dominate the print and other media. The superhero genre, as classically instituted, is almost nowhere to be seen. I'll get to that a little later, but I think you are making the mistake that if it wears bright colors and has a funny name (Wonder Woman) it's automatically following the superhero genre conventions. Most modern superhero stories do not.



So don't read it. Please don't discourage the OP from doing it if he wants to. Some of us LIKE retro stories. Bronze Age is my preference. Do a good Bronze Age style story and I'll be there with bells on. Those are actually quite original now, because they have rarely been seen for nearly 30 years (since Miller and Moore in the mid-80s).



I find this comment unnecessarily combative. GMan, I usually like your posts but there is no reason to come down on the OP this way. You seem not to like classic supehero stories. Fine, that's your preference. Why rain on the OP's parade about it? Some of us DO like them.

And I'd submit that if you were to go and actually read Marvel and DC as they are being written right now, it won't be hard at all for the OP to do it better than they are. A chimpanzee writing stories with children's blocks and crayons could do better than what people like Johns, Morrison, and Bendis are putting out these days.



This is YOUR answer. But I would caution the OP against you knowing what 'people' want. You can't know what anyone wants but you.

If your premise that people don't like old-school superhero comics is correct, then people doing the classic style would not have subscribers. But they do. So this statement about what 'people' want is full of it. Sorry if that's harsh, but I call 'em like I see 'em. And I don't like seeing an enthusiastic new creator being discouraged like this because you personally happen to dislike what he wants to do.

And 'novelty' you say -- like Zack Snyder's vision of Superman, all dark and brooding and Batman-y -- that kind of novelty? Snapping necks and destroying whole cities and never pausing to save an innocent, with a Pa Kent who tells him it's better to let someone drown than reveal his secret ID... that kind of novelty? If that's what one means by novelty -- you can keep it. No thanks.

To the OP, there is tons of room in the world for a classical superhero comic. If that's what you want to make, do that.



If the OP wants to do it this is fine. But it is not any more likely to get a following than a standard superhero story will. In fact, less. Because now you need people who like one genre to be open-minded about the other genre. Not everyone will be.

To the OP...

To me, what makes a good superhero story is to have the classic elements of the genre. These include:
The secret ID with lots of time spent in that ID and protecting it
Long, over-the-top speeches
Complicated death traps
Codes against killing
Heroes protecting innocents at great personal risk/cost
Brightly colored costumes
Larger-than-life characters and powers

I urge you to stay away from the 'gritty' stuff. That is being done to death by print and by much of the movie content. So it will seem like you are just copying what they are doing. But if you do classic stuff like Ace Maxwell, you will definitely fine an audience -- of all the people like me who prefer the classical style of superhero stories.



THANKS- i wouldnt say it better to g-man
but the important- over the top speches...i note that but wont go that over the top
- oh im planing death traps :p even my first story has one deadly situation :P
- well he is a kid, so the code about kiling is still not developed in the story (but seems like a greatidea for explore in the story)
- oh that will be in it :)
- ill note this one for later stories

AND FEAR NOT! I wont be gritty and dark (heck read the second page of my comic, im giving it a punch in the botom left panel XD )

punch to the curent heros!

and maybe Turtleboy is for ya :) it will be the tribute to clasic heros stuff but more focus on characers and some plot elements that will pop in the story

but especially thanks- that one helped alot, and thanks for defending

Merged Doublepost:

Nyomi:im a lazy piece of shit so im not quoting but @gman, "theres nothing new under the sun." its less the premise and more the execution that matter. superhero stuff is done a lot, but that doesnt mean a good superhero story isnt gonna get readers- at least i think.

OP, this might be a given, but you may wanna spellcheck your comic when you make it. theres a lot of mispellings in this thread and theyre kind of distracting. that aside, welcome to CF! :D

i expect, um... theres nothing too special about the superhero genre that i wouldnt expect from any other genre. the powers to be cool and make sense? no weird plot holes? yknow

ass pulls in superhero (or even just "people with powers") stories are the bane of my existence. if a character dies or fails dont make up some random ass magic to bring them to life with no consequences. thats a huge nono.


i agree with the premise part!
(dont worry the comic is speell checked before making...except in my posts...sory, and thanks i apreciate it :) )

- ok ill do best on that part
--ok noted and no worries ill wont try doing that, and im not planing anyone die, and if ill do some reviving of dead character there will be consequences (heck im planing on that in my main story to have my characters face with theire responsibility and consequences)


thanks for this- it definitley helped alot :) You are awsome :)

Merged Doublepost:

1.) Depends on the comic, but I have a very liberal definition of what constitutes a superhero-- basically, a fancy look and/or name, an ability that couldn't quite manifest in reality, and a sense of purpose driven towards righting wrongs in the world.

2.) I could go on all day about this, but when current superhero comics are defined by characters owned by corporations with decades upon decades of history but no real ability to age or change, there's no point.

3.) The lack of lasting consequences to what heroes do, especially if they do things that are flagrantly destructive or amoral. Recent Marvel movies like Age of Ultron and Civil War basically show that all these guys are self-centered assholes who cause more threats to the public than prevent.[/quote]

OH let me tell ya- the story definitley has consequences! heck even in the first story the main hero (jesse has to face few consequences for him to be a hero)

and no worries my characters will be aging in some aspects and there will be consequences and they will change trough out the story

thanks for this one- it was awsome help :)

Merged Doublepost:

E-hero Vulven:Hi OP. Based on what you said, you should follow Liberty Lass man's advice. Your questions are based on opinions so you'll find different answers since everyone has various tastes. I am curious about your Turtleboy. What's his superpowers?

1. WHat do you miss or is missing in the recent superhero comics ?
Trying out new things aka innovation. This goes for all entertainment media. People just don't want to push for new experimental things anymore because they just wanna make profit and popularity the safe way.

2. What annoys you in curent superheros in overall media (comics, movies, cartoons and etc.) ?
Being too wordy is one thing. Appealing to the masses too hard is another. I just recently watched Wonder Woman and when they invoked the 'red herring' i just sighed internally because it's been a common trope in movies recently. TOO COMMON. I guess I'm just the type of aficionado who likes seeing new things or old things done in new ways.


-- oh i surely will! :)

1) oh i do experioiment- a hero that is a real young kid doing hero stuff that normal adult would do! so this is something noone really tried ( a kid as hero)
2) i wont be going for that

dont like to say that...then turtleboy is maybe for ya? turtleboy is the awnser!

man thanks- this one was helpfull too- you are cool and- OMG I am watching you on DA :3 i still need to read your stuff :3 man its such a honor :3

Merged Doublepost:

thanks to all of ya you guyys!
you are awsome!!!
it did help alot!

you can read the post above me to see awnser to almoast anyone of ya!

I apreciate all of your awnsers :)
19th Jun 2017, 11:23 AM #19
Steven-Vincent

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GMan003:I don't think you ever got back to this point. Mind elaborating?


I did get back to it. When I listed what the superhero genre means to me.

People who don't 'get' superheroes, like Zach Snyder, for instance -- see only what is on the obvious surface. They are doing superheroes for the money, the acclaim, whatever, and not because they understand the genre. What's on the surface is -- super-powers, special effects, strange names, and just the most obvious things that are known about the heroes. So Superman becomes a guy with those powers, from Krypton, with a funny suit. But that is not what made the superhero genre unique for the years before Miller and Moore came along and made superheroes 'acceptable' for grown-ups to read (and thus acceptable content for movies, which they had never been before that).

The superhero genre was originally created for young people -- 10-14 year olds were the target audience. Many of the genre conventions were designed to appeal to them. To appeal to adults, movies usually throw out all the things that appealed to kids. Thus we have movies like BVS which putatively are about superheroes but respect none of the genre conventions.

If you want to really learn the genre conventions, probably the best place to go is the original (not the modern/current, the original 1st-2nd edition) Champions rulebook, its related sourcebooks (Champions II, III) and old issues of Adventurer's Club magazine, put out by Hero Games, the makers of Champions. This was a role-playing game with the express purpose of allowing players to replicate the stories you see in comics in the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Ages (no other age had yet occurred). Steve Peterson and George MacDonald, the creators of Champions, spent years working on this, and they distilled into game form the superhero genre as well as can be done. They identified, correctly (unlike Snyder and his ilk) the dominant genre conventions, and they encoded these into the game so you could play a game session using them.

And the list of elements I identified above are some of the main characteristics of the superhero genre.

- Secret Identities, and everything having to do with them. Superheroes should have personal, non-super, non-action parts of their lives. We should see those parts. The characters from those parts of their lives should be important and meaningful. The superhero should have to go through a variety of contortions to hide the identity, change into the costume for super-fights, and the like. Sure, there are some exceptions (Champions also recognized the 'Public Identity') but as a matter of form, in the genre, the Secret Identity is critical and should be left out only for extremely good reasons, and only when better story elements will result. In modern 'Dark Age' comics the SID, if it exists, is largely ignored, and the reason is so there can be action, action, and more action. This destroys the narrative power of the character and eliminates the ability to tell personal stories about the hero.

- Over the top speeches. These are part of the genre form, and are unique not just to superheroes but specifically to superhero comics. Only in comics can you have a panel in which the action depicted on the page clearly could not encompass the total amount of time it would take to say all the words. People who fail to understand the genre (or who dislike it) consider this element 'unrealistic.' But superhero stories were never meant to be realistic -- they were meant to be fun, exciting, interesting, engaging, lots of other things. But not realistic. After all, a guy who can fly because the sun is yellow is already unrealistic so why worry about how many words there are in the word balloon? These speeches do, however, give the genre a particular feel and tone to it -- one that is missing in other formats like movies, and one that can only be found in the superhero comic. I feel it is a mistake to abandon one of the signature elements of a genre because people who don't like the genre find it silly.

- Death Traps (and other elements like them). Why doesn't the Joker, when he has Batman defeated, just shoot him dead? It's physically possible, to be sure. He doesn't. Classically he puts Batman in some kind of deathtrap that will be hard but not impossible to escape, and 'leaves him to die', when of course, Batman will figure out how to get out of it. Why do this? Again, because that's part of the genre. Death traps are cool and fun and kids don't stop to reason out what Joker could 'more easily' or efficiently do. Death Traps were so important there was a whole section of Champions II devoted to them.

- Heroic attitudes - such as Code vs. Killing, Protective of Innocents, and the like. Superheroes are larger than life not just by their powers but by their behaviors. They embody what is the best of us. That doesn't mean they must be flawless or perfect but they should be trying to be -- attempting to be. One reason I enjoy the Supergirl TV show so much is because whatever else is going on in the story, Supergirl is always trying to help people (even when she messes up) and always trying to save lives. She says repeatedly when told she should just kill someone, that she doesn't kill. (I will admit that twice in the first season it is unclear if she killed someone or not, as the final blow could have been lethal and the villain is not shown after that, but since subsequent to these scenes she has repeated her 'I don't kill' mantra, I assume that she did not kill either person.) Heroes were given values kids could look up to and taking those away removes a key element from the genre.

- Brightly colored costumes... These are a convention because when the genre began, printing was limited and bright, contrasting colors were needed for the hero to 'print well' on the old newsprint pages. However, this lasted long enough that this is now a clear and unambiguous genre convention. Fortunately in the movies, Marvel has mostly embraced this convention, and characters like Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Captain America still have those colors. DC seems embarrassed by them and desaturates most of the colors to make them 'darker'. Even the Supergirl TV show darkened the reds and blues of her costume unnecessarily to make it more 'realistic.' Again, this convention did not exist for purposes of realism, but for purposes of clarity. Plus, kids love fun, bright colors like Superman's or Wonder Woman's original costumes. Again I say, this convention should be retained because there is no good reason to get rid of it. 'It's more realistic' doesn't cut any ice with me.

- Larger than life powers. If I hate anything it's the attempt to 'depower' and make more realistic the superhero powers that have existed for many years. Superheroes can do things nobody in the real world can. That's kind of the point. Weakening them so Superman can only lift a small car or something, doesn't make the story more realistic - it makes Superman boring. This is pretty much the only thing the movies and other adaptations get right if they do at all -- because directors know how to do over the top mindless SFX such as explosions and laser beams. So the modern re-tellings tend to keep this (and only this) element of the superhero while throwing everything else out.

You mention the New 52. How many comics in the New 52 obeyed more than one or two of these conventions? I know for a fact ZERO obeyed them all. No modern comics obey more than one or two, in fact.

Thus I submit that anyone doing a webcomic about superheroes who obeys the traditional genre form, would be doing something different an unique -- something that has not been done much, if at all, for 30+ years. 'Everything old becomes new again.'
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19th Jun 2017, 4:37 PM #20
DrewSpence

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I think there are several good points here, but I think there is danger in giving the 'superhero' genre too much credit.
-better write a good story first and THEN worry about the setting- and the SETTING is all the genre truly is...

If you look at all the aspects listed as What Makes This a Superhero Thing- they are all pulled from material BEFORE the EARLY surge in comics.

The Mask
The Cape
The Secret Identity
Villains

etc.....
almost none of that matters.

Superman is a great example. Superman is a universal, that pulled in so many themes, you have to pick what Superman is TO YOU.

Is he a reporter, hiding super powers or an ALIEN/God walking among us? Batman V Superman
Is he a superman grappling with daily entanglements? Lois Vs Clark
Is he a hero coming of age and grappling with young-ish issues? Smallville
Is he in the friendzone? The original black and white series
Is he an icon of classic values? Christopher Reeves superman
Is he an icon of 'modern' values? Superman Returns
Is he an asset to be manipulated? Dark Knight Returns

I didn't personally follow ALL of these, but it's a basic list off the head and I'm sure Lovers of Superman can name a million other interpretations or argue about some I listed. lol The only thing that separates one version from another is where the writer puts the emphasis in his story. To say someone doesn't "get it" or "This is the way to do a superhero/comic" etc is something else.


To be honest, you'll know you have a good superhero comic, when whatever you create is still good without ALL THE SUPERHERO stuff. That's the rule for all things.

Skip too many bits of the formula and you might mix-genres or miss the genre on the surface.
Do too many and you might be 'one more in the crowd' or an ignored work.

And I still say, the best judges ARE people you have a casual interest in whatever you create.
And the above statement is assuming you want mass-consumption-appreciation of your art.

If you do not, please ignore EVERYTHING I said.
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