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"Gunplay on tv", 30th Nov 2017, 1:47 AM #1
BUMBLEBEE

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I've been catching up on the walking dead lately and it reminds of something that just bugs the shit out of me. They're having these firefights where everybody is firing assault rifles on full auto and the two sides are only like 50 yards from each other, using cars as cover. Bullets bouncing off the doors... It's just ridiculous. And where's all the damn ammo coming from? And why would people who have survived as much by being tight with the resources all of a sudden think it's a good idea to blaze away their precious bullets like that? It's so inappropriate to the world rules they set up in the first couple seasons... Because it looks cool to fire thirty rounds in a couple seconds?

And another thing, not limited to the walking dead, I see it all the time: every automatic pistol I ever fired clicks ONE TIME when your outta rounds, bc there's no explosion to push the receiver back and recharge the hammer. You can't just keep going click click click to emphasize the point that the character has run out of rounds.

And one more thing, along those lines, how many times are you going to charge that weapon before you shoot it? I'm always seeing that distinctive Shk-chk sound as an audio cue to heighten the tension. Shk-chk, uh oh shit just got serious! But you can't keep charging it over and over to remind the audience that someone's fixing to get shot. Each subsequent charge ejects a live round you coulda fired.

Are there any Hollywood gun tropes that drive you crazy enough to post a rant while you're waiting for your wife to get out of a meeting so you can go eat dinner?
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30th Nov 2017, 2:13 AM #2
GMan003
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BUMBLEBEE:I've been catching up on the walking dead lately and it reminds of something that just bugs the shit out of me. They're having these firefights where everybody is firing assault rifles on full auto and the two sides are only like 50 yards from each other, using cars as cover. Bullets bouncing off the doors... It's just ridiculous. And where's all the damn ammo coming from? And why would people who have survived as much by being tight with the resources all of a sudden think it's a good idea to blaze away their precious bullets like that? It's so inappropriate to the world rules they set up in the first couple seasons... Because it looks cool to fire thirty rounds in a couple seconds?


The excessive use of ammo is a (ubiquitous) realism problem, but "only fifty yards away" is not. That's the normal figure given for "combat effective range" for a rifle - sure, the bullets can go a lot further, but even a trained soldier isn't expected to be nailing targets behind cover at that range. That's about the limit for accuracy with iron sights (old rifles that went out to like two kilometers were only firing at formations at that range).

And while it's absolutely stupid in a post-apocalyptic scenario, it's not unrealistic for military conflicts. I forget what the exact figure was, but in Iraq, we were averaging several thousand rounds expended per enemy casualty, per US Army reports. You shoot for suppression - to make the other guys keep their heads down so they can't shoot back. It's not an efficient use of materiel, but we don't exactly have a shortage of ammunition.

BUMBLEBEE:And another thing, not limited to the walking dead, I see it all the time: every automatic pistol I ever fired clicks ONE TIME when your outta rounds, bc there's no explosion to push the receiver back and recharge the hammer. You can't just keep going click click click to emphasize the point that the character has run out of rounds.


Have you never fired a double-action pistol? Pulling the trigger recocks the striker or hammer, then drops it. On some guns, that's the only way to cock the action - they don't recock the hammer/striker as part of cycling. So if you keep pulling the trigger on an empty chamber, it keeps going click.

This is basically the standard way for a modern (post-WW2) handgun to work. The PPK James Bond uses? Double-action. The Beretta 92 currently issued in the US Army? Double-action. The Glock basically every cop uses? Double-action (with the twist that cycling puts the striker at half-cock). You'll have trouble finding a handgun in production today that isn't either DA/SA or DAO.

Even old handguns could work this way. Pick up a Colt New Army revolver, model of 1892. Pull the trigger, it goes click. Pull the trigger again, it goes click again.

In your defense, a lot of the iconic handguns are single-action, and worked the way you describe. The Luger, the Tokarev, most of the stuff John Browning made (Colt 1911 and Browning Hi-Power to name two), the Broomhandle Mauser, all were single-action handguns. But you'll note the most recent of those was designed in 1930 - handguns have evolved greatly since then.
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30th Nov 2017, 3:07 AM #3
Chippewa Ghost
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My personal distaste is reserved for disregarding gross inequalities in firepower. Like, no way is a dude with a pistol going to stand the slightest chance against opposition armed with assault rifles.

I will say that Breaking Bad stands out as one show that did a great job conveying the futility of this, both with a certain shootout early on between White's in-law and (an admittedly unhinged) meth dealer, and the later on firefight between same in-law and the Nazis.
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30th Nov 2017, 4:15 AM #4
MK_Wizard

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My greatest peeve about gun power really is when it's clear that everything is fake. I find it way more suspenseful and intense when the characters are actually making the effort to shoot wisely instead of bang, bang, bang and bang as if their guns are toys. When you shoot a gun, it makes noise and there's a flash. You've got to make your shots count or else you give yourself away. That and why do you always have to kill? I understand if you do it for self defence, but I prefer it when there's less drama behind it and more desperation to live. I think the episode where Homer Simpson got a gun sums up how silly it looks to treat a gun like a toy (as well as dangerous) when he went as far as using his gun to open up his beer. At one point, enough's enough.
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30th Nov 2017, 4:25 AM #5
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Sometimes in TV/Movies there are aspects of guns that are "tweaked" or ignored, either deliberately or through ignorance, for the sake of it being entertaining I guess. Like, guns are REALLY loud, it's funny when people are having casual conversations when bullets are flying.
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30th Nov 2017, 5:03 AM #6
BUMBLEBEE

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Yeah that’s another one!

Merged Doublepost:

GMan003:The excessive use of ammo is a (ubiquitous) realism problem, but "only fifty yards away" is not. That's the normal figure given for "combat effective range" for a rifle - sure, the bullets can go a lot further, but even a trained soldier isn't expected to be nailing targets behind cover at that range. That's about the limit for accuracy with iron sights (old rifles that went out to like two kilometers were only firing at formations at that range).


Have you never fired a double-action pistol? Pulling the trigger recocks the striker or hammer, then drops it. On some guns, that's the only way to cock the action - they don't recock the hammer/striker as part of cycling. So if you keep pulling the trigger on an empty chamber, it keeps going click.


I get that about the range, but in the scenario I’m talking about the only “cover” is cars, if you watch the last couple episodes of walking dead you’ll see what I mean. It’s ridiculous.

For the double action, I might be remembering a little fuzzy - it’s been a minute since a shot a pistol. But I do recall that receiver locking back after the last round...
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30th Nov 2017, 9:32 AM #7
Cooke
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The receiver (or slide) does indeed lock back on many automatic pistols to let the shooter know it's time to reload. So yes, the idea of them pulling the trigger on an empty gun with the slide still engaged is a mistake. Unless there's a jam in the chamber where a shell didn't fully eject.
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30th Nov 2017, 1:39 PM #8
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Sovember:Sometimes in TV/Movies there are aspects of guns that are "tweaked" or ignored, either deliberately or through ignorance, for the sake of it being entertaining I guess. Like, guns are REALLY loud, it's funny when people are having casual conversations when bullets are flying.


Does anyone remember the episode where Carol Peletier was raising her hands in surrender to four of Negans men on a pick up truck, when suddenly, from her right sleeve, she open fired automatic rounds from a hidden firearm?
People were so annoyed at the lack of realism at that moment. Something to do with the size of the firearm somehow managing to remain hidden in her sleeve, the shooting trajectory plus other factors made the whole dramatic moment ridiculous.

I grew up enjoying action films for the most part but as I've gotten older, I'm way less impressed with gun fights in films. They are a gun-nuts wet dream.
I love films that perfectly portray the fear and threatening nature of gun violence and gun related warfare.

Two films come to mind. No Country For Old Men made everything looks less than glamorous. The film was real scary.
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30th Nov 2017, 2:36 PM #9
SweetInsanity

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I don't know about anyone else, but I get really, really peeved when a gun runs out of ammo and ONLY clicks. I haven't fired a lot of handguns, but I'm pretty sure that when you run out, the gun clicks when the top part of the gun bounces back. I don't know how to describe it, but it looks like this:


And then on TV the gun runs out, clicks, but stays exactly the same.


Oh, and say hi to your wife for me.
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30th Nov 2017, 2:41 PM #10
BUMBLEBEE

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Red Jack:Does anyone remember the episode where Carol Peletier was raising her hands in surrender to four of Negans men on a pick up truck, when suddenly, from her right sleeve, she open fired automatic rounds from a hidden firearm?
People were so annoyed at the lack of realism at that moment. Something to do with the size of the firearm somehow managing to remain hidden in her sleeve, the shooting trajectory plus other factors made the whole dramatic moment ridiculous.

I grew up enjoying action films for the most part but as I've gotten older, I'm way less impressed with gun fights in films. They are a gun-nuts wet dream.
I love films that perfectly portray the fear and threatening nature of gun violence and gun related warfare.

Two films come to mind. No Country For Old Men made everything looks less than glamorous. The film was real scary.
Mencace To Society. This is an old film some of you may have never watched. If not, you really should.
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That's a great point too - everyone's so busy blazing away in these movies that you forget guns are actually super dangerous and scary when the wrong guy's got one in his hands... and in the real world you never know who that guy is!
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30th Nov 2017, 4:31 PM #11
GMan003
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BUMBLEBEE:For the double action, I might be remembering a little fuzzy - it’s been a minute since a shot a pistol. But I do recall that receiver locking back after the last round...


Are you mixing up "receiver" and "slide"? A lot of pistols do have slide hold-opens, mechanisms to lock the slide back on an empty magazine, which, depending on the safety mechanisms, could lock the trigger, but plenty of pistols don't work that exact way.
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30th Nov 2017, 4:40 PM #12
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Can't remember if I find anything irritating or just hilarious. It may do something about ammo, how guns works or more likely gun safety...
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30th Nov 2017, 4:46 PM #13
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Chippewa Ghost:Like, no way is a dude with a pistol going to stand the slightest chance against opposition armed with assault rifles.


B-but it looks so cool :(

...

Only thing that ever bugs me is weak sound effects. And I don't mean they need to be ear bleedingly loud, just at least make it sound like people are getting shot with something that actually packs a kick
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30th Nov 2017, 4:58 PM #14
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Related to what Rulerbrain said, the way people can hear fine and don't seem to care about how LOUD guns are. (A nice dose of reality from Tale of Two Cities -- one character goes deaf after a 1700s black powder pistol goes off right next to her ear while she's fighting the shooter.)
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30th Nov 2017, 6:51 PM #15
SweetInsanity

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Yeah, I agree. What I Like about the John Wick movies is that he uses a silencer - not because it "silences" the gun (because it doesn't), but because he won't damage his ears.
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30th Nov 2017, 7:30 PM #16
BUMBLEBEE

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The Doodler:Related to what Rulerbrain said, the way people can hear fine and don't seem to care about how LOUD guns are. (A nice dose of reality from Tale of Two Cities -- one character goes deaf after a 1700s black powder pistol goes off right next to her ear while she's fighting the shooter.)


You did a thing on this in your comic, iirc. After(during) a firefight in the woods, one of the characters can't hear anything. I loved that sequence, it was harrowing.
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30th Nov 2017, 10:06 PM #17
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Rulerbrain:Only thing that ever bugs me is weak sound effects. And I don't mean they need to be ear bleedingly loud, just at least make it sound like people are getting shot with something that actually packs a kick


Think that has something to do with ratings. The louder a gun shot is, the more 'violent' it's perceived by the ratings board. That's why gun shots usually sound quieter in 12's movies.
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1st Dec 2017, 7:36 PM #18
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There are some things that are just more entertaining than realism. that's why they use wires in kung fu movies. Imagine a Realistic version of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, or Iron Monkey. Also, imagine every scene in a burning building just being a black screen full of smoke with everyone dead from smoke inhalation. We stretch reality for the sake of entertainment. Clearly you can go too far and lose people's suspension of disbelief. I mean almost no one get's hit by a bullet when running away from a hail of gunfire in the movies. Not even a flesh wound. And there's very few goons that get shot and don't immediately fall stone dead, meanwhile heroes get shot in the gut and keep on trucking. but what's the alternative?

"hey everyone. Can we agree to save our bullets for the Zombies, and just fight with knives?"

"Sure, come on out..."

BANG!
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2nd Dec 2017, 12:36 AM #19
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Travis:I mean almost no one get's hit by a bullet when running away from a hail of gunfire in the movies. Not even a flesh wound.


Apparently, a moving target is almost impossible to hit when you listen to experts highly trained in combat. I think that's why in the military, they're taught to lay down a line of fire and try to get the enemy to move into it. So maybe the movies got that one right (even if unknowingly).
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11 days ago, 8:41 PM #20
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Yeah, I believe it. Especially after my one attempt at skeet shooting. But there are some scenes where the short distance and quantity of bullets just make the odds pretty crazy, especially with all the ricochets off of everything.

I mean, there's a man on trial right now that picks up a gun off the street, Accidentally(?)fires one shot, ricocheted off the ground and killed a woman.
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Forum > General discussion > Gunplay on tv
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