Comic Fury Webcomic Hosting - Ten hours per panel

You are not logged in. Log in, Register, More info
Forum > Critique > Ten hours per panel
Pages: [1] [2] [3]

"Ten hours per panel", 6 days ago, 2:01 AM #1
Sikyanakotik
Digital Metalworker
User avatar
Posts: 689
Registration date: 12th Sep 2017
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
image

… Minimum. And that's not counting planning, writing, environment modelling, and formatting. That's how long it takes me just to get the art done for Spider Pizza. At three panels a week, this is essentially a full-time job I'm not getting paid anything for. It is wasn't for the captioned style I'm using, I wouldn't be able to make a comic at all. As it stands, it'll be at least another month before I get to the inciting incident.

Does it even look like ten hours of work, though? Is this something you'd pay an artist $180 for their time creating!? I know I'm biased here because I always think my work looks like crap … I'm sorry. I'm sick, and it's making me touchy.

Anyway, do you guys have any advice on how I can speed up my process without sacrificing polish? I'd be happy to discuss how I do things to help isolate where I'm going wrong. I'm terrified I'm going to burn out, fall behind, or just use the comic as an excuse not to work on important things like finding paying work. Or maybe I should just give up and find a different way to tell this story.

And before you bring it up, yes. I'm fully aware of Lars Martinson's video on the topic.
_______________________
image imageimageimageimage
6 days ago, 2:22 AM #2
HeSerpenty

User avatar
Posts: 2479
Registration date: 23rd Nov 2012
Location: California
Aw man you poor thing! I mean I fully understand the struggle but I think if I had to spend that amount of time on just one panel I'd smash my head in the wall!

What program do you use? FOr me...page time was cut in literally half just by switching programs. I'm using Clip Studio now and there's aaaall sorts of easy coloring shortcuts!
_______________________
image
--Updates Every Friday!--



6 days ago, 2:30 AM #3
Sikyanakotik
Digital Metalworker
User avatar
Posts: 689
Registration date: 12th Sep 2017
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
I'm using Krita, which has a fantastic tool for colouring line art. It's also free, which is important.
_______________________
image imageimageimageimage
6 days ago, 2:32 AM #4
ratt
and who could forget dear ratboy
User avatar
Posts: 712
Registration date: 25th Feb 2014
Location: m8
Your art honestly looks great, it does look like you put the time and effort in and my first thought would be to say, you're doing this for you so essentially who cares how long it takes
But it sounds like this has become work and a hassle for you and unless you want to try and change your mindset to be that of The Tortoise, which I personally think would be fine, then you're just going to have to get faster right?
You're already doing a lot of art a week but are you doing the kinds of things that will train your arm and eye to know what to do without labouring so hard? Even if you aren't drawing in a realistic style doing studies from life will, eventually, get better at drawing. Try timing them, I can find it later but there's a site is just photographs for studies that has an option to change after a shirt amount of time so you can't cheat and have to do as much as you can as quickly as you can- but you can easily do that your self too.
Which brings me to my next point. As you're trying to get down the essence of a picture in under 2 minutes couple of things are going to happen: you're gonna learn to take in and draw out only the most important elements but most importantly you're gonna stop giving so much of an Fudge. Which by far is my most sagely advice I have to give, if you do nothing else, to go faster, try and care a bit less about that high polish. I don't know what the equivalent saying is to "P's get degrees" but if the polish is going to make you quite then what's the point of trying so hard basically you'll end up with an unfinished project and anger at yourself.

PS. Colours great but if you did grey scale think how you could be zooming along with your story
_______________________
imageimage
6 days ago, 2:46 AM #5
BATIMA

User avatar
Posts: 4
Registration date: 2nd Aug 2017
Location: Brazil
Do it like me!
Cut every corner that you can and find ways to cut the ones you cant
time is the essence

especially for lazy bastards like myself!
_______________________
6 days ago, 2:49 AM #6
lirvilas
Venture Capitalist
User avatar
Posts: 2109
Registration date: 24th Mar 2014
Location: Changing Lives
-
_______________________
image
6 days ago, 2:54 AM #7
Sovember

User avatar
Posts: 1156
Registration date: 23rd Dec 2015
Location: Chillin with Socrates
Man respect i couldnt do 10 hours a panel hell no haha. Give yourself a time limit for a page of 6 panels in 4 hours and see which step of the process you’re slowest at (sketching, lining, backgrounds, collr ect.) then experiment with ways in which you could speed up that step. Maybe putting less detail on your sketch phase and practice faster line strokes with a different width? For coloring you could do all the shading in grey in an overlay layer so that most of your coloring is just plopping down flats and maybe adjusting colors. Lots of little experiments but first step would be seeing where you’re putting the most time!
_______________________
imageimage
6 days ago, 3:00 AM #8
Robotwin.com

User avatar
Posts: 2967
Registration date: 22nd Sep 2010
Location: USA, Milky Way
It doesn't look like 10 hours to me (but it looks nice). When you say "environment modeling," do you mean 3D modeling? I suppose you could do everything in 3D, with painterly texture mapping. All the 3D artists here seem to crank out mass quantities of pages.

Otherwise, you need to break down your process for us in more details. How much time is spent on every little thing?
6 days ago, 3:19 AM #9
callmerocket
Taking Names & Spitting Images
User avatar
Posts: 439
Registration date: 2nd Jun 2015
Location: Portland, OR
Sikyanakotik:And before you bring it up, yes. I'm fully aware of Lars Martinson's video on the topic.


I knew nothing of Lars Martinson's video on time saving tips. Cheers, that's real interesting stuff. Now I gotta get ahold of his comic 0_o

It doesn't look like you have exactly the same problems that guy has though (the cross-hatching! The ink brush! Needlessly complicated setting locations!) so where exactly do you perceive the holdup to be? Is it the shading? Looks like you put a lot of effort into it.

Sovember:Give yourself a time limit for a page of 6 panels in 4 hours and see which step of the process you’re slowest at (sketching, lining, backgrounds, collr ect.) then experiment with ways in which you could speed up that step.


This is excellent advice.
_______________________
image
image
6 days ago, 3:19 AM #10
Sikyanakotik
Digital Metalworker
User avatar
Posts: 689
Registration date: 12th Sep 2017
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
You're right, Ratt; timed gesture studies would be helpful. I'll admit to spending far too much time tweaking where every single line goes. I figured my speed would get better naturally along with my anatomy as I kept working (and the latter, at least, has: compare Ari's arms here to the little baby arms he has in the most recent live page), but

I don't think cutting out colour would help much, since the actual colouring process doesn't take that long. Shading takes a while, but that's the most fun part. Besides, I think the cartoonish proportions I'm using will look better with bright, cartoonish colours. I'd probably just end up obsessing over values without my character palettes to work from. I also use each characters' eye colour as their image colour, reelected in the colour of their text boxes. I suppose I could colour just the eye, but that might be distracting.

On the other hand, the plot is more or less film noir without the purple prose, so going greyscale would help me reflect this. It isn't enough to tip the scales, but it's still a point in its favour.

Robotwin.com:It doesn't look like 10 hours to me (but it looks nice). When you say "environment modeling," do you mean 3D modeling? I suppose you could do everything in 3D, with painterly texture mapping. All the 3D artists here seem to crank out mass quantities of pages.

Otherwise, you need to break down your process for us in more details. How much time is spent on every little thing?

I'm using Sketchup to design my environments and help plan out compositions. Here's the image I started with:


As for the time breakdown, I've never timed each step outright. Partly because I keep going back and fixing things that look wrong, so I'm not exactly going step by step. But I'd say planning and roughing each characters' pose takes an hour or two, then the line art takes another hour per character, and the background and its details takes a couple of hours depending on complexity. Laying down base colours is very quick, about ten minutes per character. Shading's about two hours for the whole page.

Now that I have some distance from this, I see a major area where I can save a lot of time: the background details! Outside of establishing shots, why am I using lines there at all when it would be faster and look better just to use chalky blocks of colour, as I did on this page:



Merged Doublepost:

Sovember:Man respect i couldnt do 10 hours a panel hell no haha. Give yourself a time limit for a page of 6 panels in 4 hours and see which step of the process you’re slowest at (sketching, lining, backgrounds, collr ect.) then experiment with ways in which you could speed up that step. Maybe putting less detail on your sketch phase and practice faster line strokes with a different width? For coloring you could do all the shading in grey in an overlay layer so that most of your coloring is just plopping down flats and maybe adjusting colors. Lots of little experiments but first step would be seeing where you’re putting the most time!


I honestly don't see how I could draw six panels in four hours. That's two weeks worth of pages!
_______________________
image imageimageimageimage
6 days ago, 3:38 AM #11
swamp
Min-Pin Kingpin
User avatar
Posts: 894
Registration date: 8th Feb 2017
Location: Not Montana
I'd say you should consider ditching the shading entirely. Flats, looking fine and saving time
_______________________
6 days ago, 3:39 AM #12
Robotwin.com

User avatar
Posts: 2967
Registration date: 22nd Sep 2010
Location: USA, Milky Way
You could take the paper doll approach, like use 2D cut-out animation techniques to pose your characters. Export as PNG and touch up in Krita as needed. Keep most of your camera angles the same and re-use your already painted environments as much as possible.
6 days ago, 4:25 AM #13
Caliguican
❄️🌶️
User avatar
Posts: 186
Registration date: 24th May 2015
Location: Tomato soup
What robotwin said about puppets is a good solution for going faster. Only thing of note is that if you have shading on the parts of the character puppets, things can get wonky in some lighting situations and poses. And some people will be rude about your use of puppets.

You could try doing simplified cel shading or simplified airbrush shading to speed up the process a bit. Or a hybrid of the two where you blob in the main shading with an airbrush and add in detail with a hard brush. It's really all up to you,though.

Also 2nding Clip Studio Paint cause it saves some serious time coloring and more thanks to it's tools. It has a bunch of good vector things which make for easier coloring and manipulation, like using animate to make your comic but without the huge headache of expensive unstable software that has a shit brush.
It goes on sale very often, i think they're probably gonna have a Christmas or New year's sale soon, normal version is 25 usd on sale and bigger buffer version is 100 USD on sale.(the main difference between the two versions being that big buff has a ton of animation stuff compared to normal and looks like it's trying to rival toonboom, tvpaint, and animate)

But the "best" and longest lasting way to get faster is to practice a lot and draw daily, that way you're able to do things to satisfaction more quickly.
_______________________
I'll add a new thing here later or something.
6 days ago, 4:42 AM #14
Sikyanakotik
Digital Metalworker
User avatar
Posts: 689
Registration date: 12th Sep 2017
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Flats and paper dolls might work if this was a gag-a-day comic, but I don't think that style would work well for a conspiracy thriller. Plus, I'd have to make a massive library of poses and expressions, and I couldn't use any of it during the action scenes, so the time saved is much less than you'd think.
_______________________
image imageimageimageimage
6 days ago, 4:46 AM #15
Zannthesword

User avatar
Posts: 772
Registration date: 10th Sep 2013
first answer, yes it does look like you have spent a significant amount of time on this (look up aaron blaise on youtube he can provide you shortcuts that you might like. hes a disney artist)

second answer, no i probably would not pay 180$ for that. I engage from time to time in commercial art. I make business cards, restaurant menus, posters ect. and I charge 10$ an hour (minimum 60$ )

part of being an artist is the speed of which you complete your work. If anything i would have thought you spend about 14 hours on this just with the small details of shading. I can visually see all the hard work you are putting into this. The average consumer would not though.

do you use photoshop? add blend layers and your own photography into the mix. you could shave off 6 hours, maybe more.

Blend layers can mimic shading without any extra hard work. you simply add a layer and change the mode to darken/color burn/ ect (depending on the kind of shading you are doing and change your opacity to 50% and then choose a shading brush along with grey or black and boom. 15 minute shading instead of 3 to 5 hours.


always be improving.

These drawings took me about 3 hours to do a piece (hooray profit!) I removed his personal information from them though, but you can see the design. keep in mind these are meant to be 2 inches wide
_______________________
6 days ago, 4:47 AM #16
Mild

User avatar
Posts: 170
Registration date: 3rd Aug 2016
I tried Krita and found it infuriatingly uncomfortable almost in every way. It's also super slow on my computer.
Have you tried FireAlpaca? It's also free and has some cool features that can help you speed up your drawing process (comic panels, perspective, rulers, line smoothing, clever filling tool, etc.)
_______________________
6 days ago, 5:14 AM #17
callmerocket
Taking Names & Spitting Images
User avatar
Posts: 439
Registration date: 2nd Jun 2015
Location: Portland, OR
Lessee... if you're using one of the cheaper, beginner-level tablets, then upgrading your equipment to something like a Cintiq is an easy way to speed up productivity (I admit the cost is prohibitive for some. Still totally worth it IMO). If you're already rocking tools like that, you'll have to do things the hard way to trim hours.

I recommend hitting your search engines and hunting for tutorials on all the different methods of inking/flats/shading in your drawing program. There's a lot of stuff that isn't intuitive, so if you're self-taught in those programs, there could be a veritable trove of untapped functions and devices that might help you out in some of the areas that slow you down.

If you're already a Krita wiz, and even if you're not, I'mma return us to this idea:

Sikyanakotik:I honestly don't see how I could draw six panels in four hours. That's two weeks worth of pages!


If we, the Ten Hours Per Panel-thread Cheerleaders, dared you to try, would you try? }:-D You should give it a shot, Sik. Start a new thread about it; post pics w/ a story about what you were trying to do, what you did, and what you learned. I'll tweak it a bit: 3 panels in 5 hours. Half the time, three times the material! You'll prrrrrobably fail the first time? B/c it's a learning process and most of the time people don't succeed at things on the first, second and even third tries? But hey. I'd say, if you absolutely know you won't finish all three to entirety, try and get all three to *a* level of completion: Like, all the layouts, or all the lines, maybe even all the flats done for all three. At the end, even if you don't meet the goal, you'll have three prepped panels ready for the longest but most meditative and enjoyable part of the process; shading.
_______________________
image
image
6 days ago, 5:45 AM #18
E-hero Vulven
tells us a tale of e-bravery
User avatar
Posts: 1166
Registration date: 17th Mar 2012
Location: Solid State Society
Cut corners. Getting better tools and software might save you time. There's not really much shortcuts I can think of since I'm not an expert lol.
_______________________
image
6 days ago, 6:19 AM #19
Sikyanakotik
Digital Metalworker
User avatar
Posts: 689
Registration date: 12th Sep 2017
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
callmerocket:Lessee... if you're using one of the cheaper, beginner-level tablets, then upgrading your equipment to something like a Cintiq is an easy way to speed up productivity (I admit the cost is prohibitive for some. Still totally worth it IMO). If you're already rocking tools like that, you'll have to do things the hard way to trim hours.

I recommend hitting your search engines and hunting for tutorials on all the different methods of inking/flats/shading in your drawing program. There's a lot of stuff that isn't intuitive, so if you're self-taught in those programs, there could be a veritable trove of untapped functions and devices that might help you out in some of the areas that slow you down.

If you're already a Krita wiz, and even if you're not, I'mma return us to this idea:



If we, the Ten Hours Per Panel-thread Cheerleaders, dared you to try, would you try? }:-D You should give it a shot, Sik. Start a new thread about it; post pics w/ a story about what you were trying to do, what you did, and what you learned. I'll tweak it a bit: 3 panels in 5 hours. Half the time, three times the material! You'll prrrrrobably fail the first time? B/c it's a learning process and most of the time people don't succeed at things on the first, second and even third tries? But hey. I'd say, if you absolutely know you won't finish all three to entirety, try and get all three to *a* level of completion: Like, all the layouts, or all the lines, maybe even all the flats done for all three. At the end, even if you don't meet the goal, you'll have three prepped panels ready for the longest but most meditative and enjoyable part of the process; shading.

I'm stuck with a tablet so cheap they don't sell it anymore for now. I'm getting a slightly better one for Christmas, but even that doesn't have a screen. I suppose I could justify buying a Cintiq if I had ... any bites on my Patron page. But until then, I have to keep costs down as much as possible.

And yeah, I could give three panels a shot. For a short, though, not the main comic yet. I'll have to script something.

Something else I'm thinking of is recording my line art process to review where I'm getting slowed down. I could make it into a nice time lapse.
_______________________
image imageimageimageimage
6 days ago, 6:20 AM #20
smbhax

User avatar
Posts: 1376
Registration date: 19th Nov 2009
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
I don't know if those 3D modeled backgrounds are doing much for the comic, and I can only imagine they take a good deal of time.

The shading of the characters feels too busy, and it isn't really giving a convincing feeling of volume; it looks like it's trying for a more detailed anatomical style than is represented by the line work, and the clash there is jarring. I too would suggest trying flat colors, at least as an experiment.

On a more meta level, if you can get away with 10 hours per panel, that's pretty rad.
_______________________
image
Forum > Critique > Ten hours per panel
Pages: [1] [2] [3]